Not getting the Value for what I'm paying

General Discussion
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Yeah, I know. You are expecting another whining, crying complaining post. I’ll try to stick to the facts and not make it so.

When someone spends money on anything, whether it be a car, gaming system, house or an online game, they expect to get a certain value for their money. There is the realization that RNG is involved in this game. But over the long haul it ought to even out and there ought to be some modicum of good fortune involved at some point. I’ve continued through hoping that at some point the RNG would work in my favor and I’d catch a break to get the HoTM early in the summons so I could stop and save some money or that I’d get the Hero in the event summons that I was hoping to get and also save some money on summons and that has not come to pass at all. Instead I’ve at best summoned season 1 5* heroes of which I already have a surplus. This is not of value to me.

Over the past 5 months I’ve simply not gotten the value for the money I’ve been spending. That being said: If you are not getting the value you expect, you stop doing the behavior and that’s exactly what’s going to happen. From this point on I’ll be Free to Play until the whole Summons issue gets straightened out.

I see no reason why I would receive a season 1 Hero in an Atlantis summons, yet except for Tarlak, that’s all I received. Except for Tarlak, that is of no value to me at all. If I do not receive the value for the money that I am spending, I will not continue to spend. I am stating this simply as a fact. It is not like I only did a summons or two. I have two accounts and was able to fill all of the available Atlantis summons chests and did summons after those were no longer available. That is a lot of summons to receive Four 5* heroes with only one of them being from Season 2. Again, That is nowhere near the value I was expecting when I decided to spend the money.

When the Atlantis summons contain only Season 2 heroes, I’ll consider spending again. I may miss out on some Heroes of the Month. I have all of the heroes of the Month that have come out so far, but I can live without the future ones if need be. I’ll try to get them with free tokens and if that does not work, well, there is now a mechanism available for me to obtain old Heroes of the Month in the future at some point in time if I decide to spend money again.

The Atlantis summons need to be fixed and Season 1 heros need to be removed from the Atlantis summons. When that happens, I’ll review whether I’ll start spending money again. The same goes for Events. I really do not want to receive copies of heroes I can acquire from my TC 20 from an event summons. Fortunately, I have nearly all of the heroes I need from the current events, so I don’t really need to do any event summons. When the summons system gets revised, I’ll reconsider whether to start spending money again.

Thank you for your time.

P.S. No, I have no interest in seeing the posts of your great Atlantis summons. That is not the point. There is RNG involved and there were some great summons out there, congrats. But the real problem is the dilution of the hero pool in the Atlantis summons.

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There’s a thread for this (at least kind of):

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While I understand your frustration at not getting the hero’s you want. This whole game is based on %age odds and therefore there is no guarantee. We constantly see players do one pull and get the hero they want plus the bonus hotm (great luck for them) but also players report that they do 20 x 10 pulls and get nothing.
I base as lie walking into a casino on the Vegas Strip if you take $100 with you and gamble expect to come out with $0 anything else is a bonus.
So basically spent what you can afford but no guarantees

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right, but at a certain point, it’s like losing every hand. When you have every standard hero x2 4 star and under and almost all the 5 stars, every one of those pulls is just trash. Same with any atlantis 3* if you don’t care about beginner event challenge (excuse me rare challenge). So only a tiny fraction of any hero is worth anything to people at the top…used to be if I spent $100, I got 4x10 pulls (yes an extra 400 gems but I’m rounding) and almost always got a bunch of heroes I didn’t have or wanted duplicates. Made good consolation prizes if you didn’t get the specific 1-2 heroes you were hoping for.

But now, the only thing some people need are a few specific <insert hot 5 star hero here>'s and literally everything else is garbage. So it becomes a matter of “am I getting value for spending $100”? The answer used to be yes. For many people, the answer now is no.

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The problem is that the hero pool is too dilute for it to be worthwhile to spend the money. Yes, I understand that there are only so many Atlantis 3* heroes. I don’t really care about the 3* heroes. If they want to include season 1 3* heroes in the batch it does not bother me. I can feed them to heroes I’m training just as easily as the new 3* heroes or they can make more 3* heroes for season 2. I don’t care. The 4* heroes, yes, I understand that there are only so many 4* heroes.

If you look at the number of available 5* heroes from Season 1 and the ones made available from season 2, then figure out the odds of first summoning a 5* then the odds of getting one from Season 2 it is just not worth the money. The 5* hero pool is simply too dilute. If they are going to be limiting the heroes available from Season 2, they ought to limit the heroes from Season 1 that are included as well. The 5* hero pool is simply too dilute to give you any reasonable chance at getting a season 2 5* hero.

There are 20 regularly available 5* heroes from Season 1 and there were I think 2 5* heroes available from Season 2 and 2 old Heroes of the month. This means that you had about a 5% chance at summoning a 5* to begin with (This is assumed through testing and not proven). There are 20 Regularly available Heroes from Season 1. That makes 24 total 5* heroes with 2 being from season 2 and 2 being old heroes of the month. The bulk of the rest are all from Season 1. That is far too dilute a pool of 5* heroes to expect any reasonable chance at getting a hero I desire.

In other words, it is not worth the money and I will not spend until this situation is resolved. This is not a “I’m taking my toys and going home.” situation. This is simply a situation where the potential benefits do not warrant the costs. It needs to be fixed.

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When I read the text blurb accompanying the Atlantis portal, my impression was that it performs three different rolls:

  • First, roll to see if it’s a S1 or S2 hero (3x as likely to get S2 per the text blurb).
  • Second, roll for rarity (I’d guess the same odds as the event or elemental summon).
  • Third, roll to see which hero in the corresponding group of available heroes you get (I’d guess even distribution across the group).

If that is how it’s being done, then the number of 5* S2 heroes available at the Atlantis summon wouldn’t affect your odds of getting one of them since they’d be in a separate group from the 5* S1 heroes. If that’s not how it’s being done, though, then yes that would be pretty shady…

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It isn’t worth it anymore.

I did spend money and i got a 5 star Atlantis hero, but it isn’t as good as it was.

When i spend 100 euro’s to buy 10.000 gems, i can do 1 30 summon. This will give me all 3 stars i already have, some 4 stars (2nd and 3rd Grimm) , and a double 5 star (thorn). As i just need Isarnia, Justice and Joon, and have all 4 and 3 stars i’m not waiting for other 3 stars i already got.

And all players have the same. Next Atlantis event i would spend 100 euro’s (yes it’s more) for expensive 3 and 4 star feeders. And yes, Thorn is fed too…

So i agree. It’s no value for money. Nice HOTM’s but considering the chances it would be just spending money for food. SG has to do something about this. All players who spent at a certain level will have the same experience.

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So basically you have a load of 5 stars meaning that your needs are now smaller. So it’s not that it is less value for money but really it’s more that you’ve spent a shed load and got alot that there’s less to go for. Completely different scenario. F2p players will have less so every summon is worth more to them, really the mistake you’ve made is pump a load of cash in to something g so quickly that you’ve actually got more than you need. The odds haven’t changed as such, you’ve shortened them by filling your roster, it’s not that it’s less value it’s just you’ve narrowed your search pool because of your previous spending. It’s. Product of your own devices.

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I have been playing for more than a year and is not a very big spender, but not F2P or C2P either in my idea of what spendings on a mobile game should be.
I think my average of 14 months is 20- 30 summons a month.
In my first 6 months of playing I got all the regular 3* and 4* and all HoTMs except Athena and Thoth.
I only got a few of the regular 5* heroes.
This year in 8 months I have got 2 HoTM and 1 5* event hero, 4 regular 5* and 2 S2 4*.
Is that good or bad I don’t know, it is all RNG.
I see newer players having 50+ 5* several duplicates but no items to level them and I don’t know what they spend.
After some months rage about my bad luck and not being able to stay highly competitive personally in the game without spending loads of $$$ I came to peace with doing the best with what I got.
I will keep on playing the game and spend what I feel seems reasonable to potentially or most likely throw out the window to get that tiny chance of something good and new.
But I do feel worried about this game turning more and more in to P2W and feel sad about very skilled and active top players leaving because of that.
And like @Otto0000 stated in the OP one of the big problems in the game now is that longtime players most often have no value of spendings on summons not even in the new S2 portal. Getting something new or valuable becomes extremely expensive when having all the regular 3* and 4* heroes and then 9/10 or 10/10 pulls in a 10x summon is only for feeding.
I would love to have some of the new 4* and 5* but as I turned C2P to not ragequit I “only”spend on 20 Atlantis summons the first time it was up.
In the first 10x summon I got 4 S2 3*, 5 regular 3* and Kelile. In the next 2 S2 4* a new 3and the rest duplicates.
Was that worth the 60 EUR ? Well it will not help me progress in game, but I may have some fun with 2 new 4 heroes to use for aw.
I am just happy that I didn’t spend the double or triple amount for same result like many of my friends in game.

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Here’s my theory on the drop rates. Heroes, ascension mats, troops, everything.

I think the drops are set at a certain number of drops of any given item, in a measured period of time. SG is controlling the output of items to better manage their business model. After the given period of time, the drops all reset. If you are unlucky enough to summon, buy, or complete a chance for said item after the limit has been reached, sorry about your luck.

The number of players in the game keep increasing. The set number of drops that is distributed is divided among a larger player base, decreasing any given players odds to receive X item.

I believe this is why so many players have noticed a dramatic decrease in drops since the launch. The more players, the less loot to go around. This model of controlling numbers of drops would also give them the ability to tell us they have never changed the drop rates, which they have told us, and not actually be lying. They could also say it’s all RNG, which it would be, just not always random for all items all the time.

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Interesting theory. It would explain why my random rare drop rates dried up since the Sandy Summer Event. I used to get 3-5 random rares each week. Then the summer event happens by and my random rares drop to 0-1 per week and has not recovered since. I have been forced to scale back my upgrading and save my rares for top notch heros only.

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You are right but the same moment you are also wrong.

Yes, there is a big bench of 5* heroes after 1 year fishing and paying for them. So people spend less on it now. And here it comes where you are going wrong:

SG builds up an “exclusive” Atlantis wheel with the same heroes + some new heroes. The price is higher (with lower chances for the specific heroes) and the time is limited. In this way SG makes the players paying for the same heroes again and the odds for the new heroes are ridiculous. I wouldn’t mind to pay a higher price for exclusive Atlantis heroes without all the heroes already long time in my collection but that is not the offer.

All together: I recommend to new players tc20, event pulls and Atlantis pulls. That covers all heroes, there is no reason to waste money/gems for elemental or epic pulls. Older players will need to decide to spend money for the (5%/25) ~0.2% chance of one specific hero.

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I can understand your frustration, but i guess this is just a consequence of spending hard.
Odds has never changed (according to what Small Giant stated). What really changed is your situation and your roster.

It is completely normal that less heroes you need/the more hero you have, less value has your pulls. It is logic.
And it’s logic that until Small Giant mass produce at the same pace of your spending, the situation may only go worse. (Thats not a suggestion, please don’t mass-produce hero every month)

That said, i think and believe that Atlantis portal may have only Atlantis heroes when there’s enough numbers to reproduce odds of the other gates.
Now you can’t really ask for that, and you know it.

Definetely be patient and wait. Refrain yourself from spending is a good idea too.

You “big whales” (or similar) has forget that this is a game of patience.

Now sit there and wait for a better chance to come.

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The odds change with enlarging the pool. And with rising the price. Do your math :wink:

Changing the odds leads to that situation. We “big whales” already paid for the heroes before and so reduced the spending. And some players reduce it more now. So more players reduce so more pressure on SG - money is the only language developers understand and accept.

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That’s so true.

If you want your money really matter, use it wisely.
I’m totally sure the only people who can really voice their opinion (and lead a big change) in this game are big spenders :wink:

But you need to act togheter, otherwise is only a drop in the ocean.

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That is sage advice, but there is a sort of sickness going on. When new heroes appear a lot of people get the summons fever. I really wonder why new heroes are so wanted if the materials to make them useful are so rare. Sure, a Tarlak would be great, or a Proteus, but one does ok without them, many of us do survive despite Guinevere’s absence, after all :). So we have a vicious circle, first a complaint of not getting the heroes, and then the complaint of those who got them because they do not have the mats. My personal grudge of not obtaining value for the spending is not having more content. No new quests, no new rare quests, same old titans.

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Why not?? :open_mouth: Isn’t he supposed to be the uber duper wanted hero? The one who will make a significant difference especially on titan hits.

There’s two ways to approach this. As most of you have already commented:

1. Summoning odds ‘‘too’’(?) low
The odds of summoning the 4* or 5* heroes you want are bottom-line low, knowing that the odds of any 4 or 5* hero are very low already. Some people get lucky, some get disappointed. I have no idea what the balance is. I read tons of sad and happy posts, but considering the low probabilities the balance will most likely lean heavily towards the disappointed side.

But I honestly doubt a significant increase in probabilities will make the game more enjoyable. The rarity of strong heroes ensures that the distinction between players remains significant, which provides these heroes with a high value. If you increase the odds of summoning good heroes, then the rarity of them gets reduced and along with that the value of these heroes as well.

Personally, I would not increase the odds and keep them this way in order to protect the main aspect of the game. I also would include normal heroes in Atlantis summons, for the same reasons. There are a few great heroes in there, so keeping them rare makes it for all of us worth using them if we obtain them.

I do agree that streaks of bad luck in summoning has to be made up for in some way. Players have been suggesting multiple systems to do this. For example:

  • Increasing the odds of 4*/5* heroes every time you do not obtain one. Then reset the system once you get your 4* or 5*.
  • A system which allows you to dismantle heroes, in order to so how summon a guaranteed (random) 4* or 5* with a certain amount of materials, time etc.
  • A system which allows you convert heroes into other (random) heroes.

Such systems will not drastically reduce the number of summons. Perhaps these will even increase the number of summons. A possible revenue boost.

2. A hero collection in which most of the heroes have already been collected
As said before, this simply causes the desired result of summoning to be considerably more difficult to achieve. Feeling satisfied only by obtaining heroes you do not have yet, while having more than half of them, makes the summon results more likely to be disappointing.

A converting-system or dismantling-system could also be a great possible solution for this.

Both situations go hand in hand with each other after all.

Time-line of E&P
Every player goes through their E&P-life and is currently in a different stage.

Starters in general will be satisfied. Spending will lead to multiple useful heroes, even if it’s a duplicate. They all serve a purpose.

Middle-term players in general will be less satisfied. Spending will lead to a few useful heroes, but a duplicate isn’t as great as before. Without luck, progressing is way more difficult. Ascension materials have low odds also, so ‘‘you have to use what you have’’ might sometimes not be sufficient enough to reach certain personal goals. Saving these materials and waiting on better heroes, will in most of the times lead to more disappointment. Money is sometimes wasted. Luckily, not for everyone!

Long-term players in general will not be satisfied. A huge amount of luck or money is needed in order to get the desired heroes. Their hero-bench is big and the chances of obtaining the heroes they do not have or duplicates they want are very low. The current system is, gently said, terrible for them. It feels as if money is wasted for almost all of them. And it probably also is.

It’s up to SGG to find a balance in this. New systems are needed to make players more satisfied. If that is what they would like to see. These new systems will be more attractive if they also create some sort of revenue flow for SGG. Maybe not directly, but indirectly it could be beneficial for all of us.

If we could for example convert heroes into other heroes, it might be attractive to spend more money on summoning. Win-win. But what happens after that? In what way will they still have a stable income if we have the heroes we want? I haven’t thought about that yet and I think it’s a difficult task.

Then there is also the ascension material issue running parallel to this. Solutions for this might fix the ‘‘but what happens after that?’’ problem i just mentioned. But what after that? We will be able to keep asking ourselves this one question.

I have spend around 100 euros in 5 months and along with the free Epic token summons I currently have the next heroes (no Atlantis):

  • 15 | 4* Heroes (13 unique ones), only 5 fully ascended
  • 1 | 5* Hero, didn’t touch it yet
  • 2 | 5* HOTM’s, half way-ish
  • All the necessary 3* heroes | 3 of each color fully ascended and some left to ascend.

I decided to only summon when I have a chance on getting better heroes than I already have. Certain event summons and Atlantis summons. I didn’t get a desired summon result out of that yet, but because I still lack(ed) a lot of heroes I was more often satisfied than not. The lack of ascension items didn’t put a stop to my progress yet, because I have been able to always ascend one or more heroes I still need. For me the system still works ‘‘okay/fine’’.

I am sometimes replying to ‘‘complaints’’ in a way which shows that I get tired of it. But I understand the system does not work okay/fine for others and support the suggestions for it to be changed, if it keeps the game balanced as it is used to be. In order to show you my understanding, I explained to you my situation, despite the fact you did not want to hear any summon results.

Nevertheless if you want to keep a big part of your players playing then it’s needed to develop bad luck systems and / or more content, which provides us with more chances to get desired heroes and ascension materials. Earning Atlantis coins is one little way of ‘‘more’’ content, wich gives us more chances. But it’s debatable if it’s set up the right way.

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except it’s not a game of patience. Odds of getting a difference maker (ie 5 star limited hero) are TINY unless you spend. Sure some people get the hotm on 5-6 tokens but 99% don’t and you can get 27 Thornes and Horghalls and it won’t make a difference.

I still play, i just don’t spend very much because it’s not worth it anymore. and it doesn’t take 4 figures of spend to reach that place either.

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But you agree with me that your pulls has not less value then before. On reverse, it’s your deck that has increased value exponentially every new pull, making everytime more difficult obtain something of your interest.
If you want only one hero instead of ten, it’s just normal that chance to get “garbage” are ten times greater.

That’s not something to blame on SG, it was like that from Hell onwards. Nothing new.
It’s just HotM apparently are more easy to pull that people complain less, but event heroes are same hard as pull a Marjana without training from the epic portal. (Aka, same as F2P using a token hoping for only one hero)

I know that you want your money have at least a bit of meaning, but what are you asking are increased chance for people who has all the other heroes? Would be fair for all the other who have less?

There’s no solution on that other then what i already told you.
Sit back and wait that SG make ten heroes in that portal worth your money.

If you trying only when you have only one chance out of thousand to get something new, then it’s more your fault then theirs.

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The pulls have less value to me. Just because they are the same doesn’t mean they arent less valuable TO ME.

The same way that giving 20 grand to someone who makes $14 an hour is far more valuable to their life than giving someone who has an eight figure trust fund 20 grand.

It’s not a matter of blame but a matter of value. For many people, they aren’t getting good value anymore. It’s spend a bunch of money and get not a single thing that improves your team. Why would you continue to do that unless you’re going to “spend at all costs to get hero X”?

In almost every other long term successful game where you buy random things (ie packs of cards for ccg etc), you can do something else with dupiclicates : you can trade them, you can sell them, in hearthstone you destroy them for use in crafting something you do want, etc. So you know that if you spend $x, even if you don’t get what you want out of that pack or box or spin, you can turn those useless things into what you want (or at least progress towards what you want ie hearthstone).

That’s part of why long term successful games like that are successful, because there’s either a secondary market or a trade-in system so you know that the $ you spend can ultimately in someway go towards what you want it to, as opposed to the screw you random chance garbage it is now.

If you’re going to penalize players for doing a good job, eg crafting a good strong hero roster but providing no real return on money spent after that, then that players spending is going to dwindle for most people, because most players are not going to spend in a month more than most people spend in total just to get a new usable hero.

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