No retreat. Need better balance

It’s one thing if you lose because the other team has a superior defense, but it’s another thing when during the tourney or wars, that the board totally dictates the out come of the match.

Latest example is the tourney. So you are given a single opponent to fight. You have also been dictated the conditions in which we have to fight with. So what happens when within the first 5 moves, your forced with single attacks of a missing color? Well it’s an easy loss. Second, based on the algorithm, the defense side will always target your weakest hero, healers or your most charged skill. Furthermore, to balance out the possibility of an attacker scoring combos, the defenders turn counter allows them to attack 3 at a time; even 4 times on occasion. For some reason defenders normal attacks damage range between 100-150pts. Attackers damage is always less; 45-60 weak vs, 90-120 normal and 150+ for strong.

So I know there alot of debate over these issues, but how can it be fair challenge when you cant retreat without a loss, the boards refuse to produce combos, no matching tile colors in series, lack of healer tiles, flooding of missing tile colors, etc.

No mater who you are, you’ve faced this dilemma at times it’s the most inconvenient.

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Lot of misinformation here.

  • The defending team always gets +20% attack and +20% defense, because you’re at a massive advantage as a human playing a basic AI
  • Based on tens of thousands of user-contributed datapoints, there is no indication the AI is specifically targeting high value cards. You can both observe how it plays for yourself when you autofarm, and read this great thread on the topic: The AI is Becoming Smarter Again And Again
  • The defender’s turn counter is balanced against the attacking human players’s varying ability to make combos and cause tile damage during their turn; it’s the same thing. If you get a combo, you can attack “3 or 4 at a time” as well
  • While the parameters of any good competition should be fair, the outcome rarely is – or we would have no motivation to compete
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There’s a lot of discussion out there about how to deal with bad boards. But your question about defender normal attacks versus attacker normal attacks is a very interesting one:

How Slash Attacks Work

A slash attack (defender normal attack) is equal to getting hit by 3 normal tiles from that single defender. There is no color stacking for defenses, and no strong or weak tiles. The slash attacks only happen every so often. When the counter rolls over, a new random number is drawn to see how many turns before the next slash attack by that hero.

And if that hero has a special hot, it replaces the slash attack. A sound strategy is: if a hero has a slash attack coming up and is only 2 turns away from full mana, you can simply hit them with tiles to collapse the slash attack into a special. You’ll save yourself a slash’s worth of damage that way.

How Tile Attacks Work

Your normal attacks, on the other hand, are tiles. And those tiles combine the attack stats of every hero of the tile’s color, in a way that boosts the strength of the attack beyond just a sum of individual attacks. If you have 3 red heroes on offense and make a red 3-match, those 3 tiles hit harder than if 9 individual tile attacks had been made by a single red hero.

Also, strong attacks hit for twice as much as neutral attacks. So if your neutral attacks are hitting for 90-120, your strong attacks must be hitting for 180-240.

A mono stack can often kill a full emblemed tank in 3 tiles (sometimes 4 are needed). Which means their strong tiles are hitting the toughest tanks around for over 450 damage each. Stacking 3-2, I will generally kill a tank in 5 or 6 strong tiles, which means my tiles are hitting for over 250 damage each. That’s a lot stronger than 3 slash attacks.

Trading Off Tile Damage And Probability Of Useful Tiles

You have the ability to make a tradeoff on offense between weak tile attacks but many useful colors, or strong tile attacks and few useful colors. With a weak tank, you can go 2-2-1 or even rainbow and really cut down on your risk of not enough tiles. With a strong tank, you can go 4-1 or 5-0 to maximize the speed of killing the tank.

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I’m sure it’s here on the boards somewhere, but I’d never read exactly how slash attacks work. I knew they sometimes come in bunches, and I figured that was to compensate for the attacker’s ability to produce combos. I also doubted the AI targets any particular hero, as that would be massively unfair. Just make sure every defender targets the attacker’s lowest HP hero, and the defense could pick them off one-by-one. The only counter would be for the attacker to bring massive numbers of healers and/or be so overpowering that they could kill the defenders before they can gang up on one of the attacking heroes. I did not realize that the defender does not benefit from strong/weak color attacks nor that the defenders’ attack counter resets to a random number after attacking. Interesting. Thanks for providing this.

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What happens? Let me explain. No, there is too much. Let me sum up: You have just played yourself a random-tile puzzle game, that’s what! :slight_smile:

I’m 8-2 so far in this 3* raid tournament. Yeah, the two losses were annoying. I stacked into certain colors based on my opponent’s defense, and luck didn’t go in my favor, I didn’t have favorable tile combos I could make, and… I lost. So? Now what? I’ll do the same thing tomorrow, getting some extra bonus hero chest points the whole time, until I lose 4 times, and then I’ll play in whatever the tourney is next week. :slight_smile:

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I have often had heroes at less than 100 health get bypassed by slash attacks or specials, which instead struck full health heroes (and even heroes with defensive buffs up). The AI may have some smarts, but it’s way, way more stupid than a human. I should have lost those fights…

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We all remember the time Melendor got KO’d by three slashes in the same turn just as he was about to heal, but scenarios like the one you describe above stick out less to most people, even though they are probably about as frequent. I definitely remember similar instances, though. Fired off a combo, then went, “Oh, crap. I didn’t notice his health was critical.” Then breathing a sigh of relief that the low HP hero wasn’t targeted during the opponent’s turn.

The opposite can also happen. I’ve had instances where I had a hero at like 50 HP (or even a fighter class hero who revived with 1 HP), and Sartana will blast him with her special. It’s like, “Whoa, there. He doesn’t get any deader than dead. Aife could have done that!” :laughing: Saves one of your other heroes from getting blasted, though. If the AI were as smart as some folks give it credit for, that kind of thing wouldn’t happen.

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Ile read up on that bad board topic see what info is there.

I did have a thought, what you think would be outcome if missing colored hero tiles only generated 50% skill to the defenders?

Really bad boards happen sometimes and it’s irritating. So depending on the tournament it’s not all about skill no but since it’s the same reward if you place 1st or 4000th I try to forget about it, it will happen to others too.

I’m at 8-2 in this tournament. The first was because I haven’t use any emblems on 3* heroes so because of an unforeseen extra cascade I charged the +18 Hawkmoon which led to both +13 Berden and +20 Azar firing. That loss is on me though because if would have been a win if we had been equal power.

The other loss no one could have prevented. Single move for 8 turns with no color charging since 3 of them were yellow. In a normal raid that could still be turned around if you had picked a defensive target but in a 3* very fast tournament it’s just death (Especially against 3 enemies having +18-20).

So really just wanted to offer my sympathy over getting a board that screws you over. I think a little randomness is good in the long run even if it isn’t always fair. Try to think of the raids you should have lost but were won due to a lucky combo of 15+.

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We’re actually not completely sure how tiles generate mana for the defenders.

But this would be problematic because it would really reward a mono strategy. The other 4 colors wouldn’t charge the defenders as much, which would make mono very, very easy to win with.

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So, i wanted to join in with my two cents. There is a lot to read. Some say the same as others, some providing different opinions and ideas and concerns about what has been a really big “issue” in the game which is the so called PvP or more so PvA.

I’m gonna start by saying, I love the game, have been playing for quite awhile now, almost 200 days. Raiding and the gem board have always been the most frustrating to me. Story mode i get diamonds for days. When I raid, I’m looking to not get a board full of all missing colors. When i play rainbow teams in raids, I get decent gems for the most part, but at this point being in Platinum rank and having my main focus on leveling as many heroes as i could to a minimum level of 60, its clear at these higher levels of matches that stacking is sometimes necessary to go against these big bad heroes with high defense & health, and good utility, because rainbow teams don’t have what it takes to take out the tanks or problematic heroes without always getting lucky with the perfect gem board. That being said, it is understandable why your luck would be lower… however, specifically speaking, when it comes to Wars, there is also a field aid/bonus that give the enemy AI a bigger advantage. In the new Raid tournaments, the playing field is equal for the most part. Both sides get the field bonus so to speak, and I love it. Its a lot more enjoyable then wars, although equally frustrating at times. You go to war and all the enemies are your level or higher, and you can only use your best team once however their teams respawn, but you go fight them anyway and have to deal with field aid, or attack boosts, or arrows, on top of them being fed by missing tiles strong supers plus a followed up slash attack, plus another field boost. Its not every other field boost goes to either team, its one-sided. And i feel like thats one of the biggest issue. Most people can deal with RNG and luck, but when it comes to being stacked up against like that, its no longer enjoyable at those times. Hopefully its something they are looking into adjusting soon.

Just did a war with a much higher ranked opponent. He had two greens, so I tripled up my reds and went at it, hoping to at least take his greens out for someone else in my alliance to finish off. Not one single red combo on the whole board the entire (short) time the match lasted. All my heroes killed before any of them mana’d up, barely put a dent in the other team. And they were some of my best heroes, so now I’m screwed for the rest of this war. Yes, the phone went flying after that. Sometimes — many times — this game with its ridiculously lopsided ‘random’ boards is the epitome of frustration.

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You played the odds of mono and you should accept that can happen. It sucks but the game would suck if you won every time you did mono.

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I fully expected to be defeated. I did not expect it to be so absolutely one-sided AND pretty much ruin my chances of doing anything in this war by using up all my good heroes of one color, and most of them in another.

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The problem with randomness in wars is that

If the first match u stacked reds, and the board has few red tiles and you lose

The next match the board will have plenty of red tiles. But you are already out of red heroes.

This makes it super frustrating.

This happens as often as not, but it also doesn’t happen as often as it does.

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Stacking heroes is more than just stack the same colour and then hope for the best. You have to look at the board you get and figure out the best way to maximize your success.

Did you stack 3 red and only get 4 red gems? Ok, where are they on the board? Are any close together? See what you can do to generate new gems alongside those ones rather than just randomly matching off colours to clear them out. If you get one or two replacement reds you are better off already as you can then work on positioning them to match. Look at what helps you out the most in matching gems.

I would also recommend using at least one fast mana hero to reduce the number of matches required to get the special going (although stacking is generally more about the gem damage really).

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Ok, so I had another war match last night against a higher ranked opponent with a blue tank and another blue. I tripled up on greens, plus Rigard and Hu Tao. Ended up with a lucky board, a decent number of green tiles and not the usual inordinate flood of blues and reds I expected with no blue or red heroes. Won the match with only a couple of losses, and a crap-ton of war points for the alliance — very lucky.

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You are supposed to say how incredibly skillfully you played the board :grin:

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Well, it goes without saying that I play every board incredibly skillfully. :rofl:

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