New mana per turn calculation on defense? We investigate Vol 2

Gameplay Help & Tactics
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83

Also, (unless the visual bar is completely off the tracks) we can see that 4 tiles + one turns brings GM’ s mana bar way past th 50% mark, and there hasn’t been any combos fired. Normally this would give (100 + 200) x 1,07 = 321 points, which is less then half the needed points.

From this, we know that it’s likely not the 4 tile combo, since he came after that. My 2 best guesses would be either the tile value is more then 50, or strong color give more mana. (Lots of blue tiles were fired)

EDIT :

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Yes. I personally have not investigated the 50 mana per tile hit at all until now.

I’ll just list possible factors that come to my mind that might influence the above shown outcome:

  • mana per tile hit is not 50 for all tiles
  • 3-match and 4-match combos give different mana gain
  • “Stacked” and/or ghosted tiles have different mana values when hitting an opponent
  • Strong color tiles give more mana than normal and/or weak color tiles

Assuming that GM needs 780 mana to be fully charged, gets 107 mana each round (100 * 1,07) and is hit 7 times each hit is averaging a mana value of around 80.86 units (75.57 without mana bonus).

I’ll do some calculations latest tomorrow where I’ll just go with +20% mana gain for strong tiles and -20% mana gain for weak tiles. SG seems to like their 20% for defense so why not try it out. :smiley:

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85

I made a suicide test to fire weak tiles against a very slow tank until he’s ready :

I have the video for later, but Boss wolf with level 21 mana troop took 3 turns + 17 tiles to fire up, without a single 4 tile combo and without ghosting a single tile. That’s a theoretical (300 + 850) x 1.11 = 1277 points. I think it’s clear that tile value is the problem.

So according to this test, the average tile value before mana boost is at least 62 per tiles, but below 67 points per tile. (otherwise he would have fired at the 16 tiles mark).

Since GM had an average tile value of above 70 points, the safest hypothesis to assume is that tiles are above 50 points, and that strong color / weak color tiles have higher/lower values

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86

SO, here is the video of boss Wolf. In this fight I fired 3 strong tiles and 13 weak tiles (the last 3 tile combo only needed the first tile to finish his special).

Based solely on the GM and Boss wolf fights, 2 theories pass the test of these 2 examples right now:

  • Normal tiles generate 50 mana and strong color tiles generate 100 mana
  • Normal tiles generate 50 mana and strong color tiles generate increased mana based on number of stacked hero.

The second one should be pretty easy to prove, I’ll try to pick a fight against a GM tank with a rainbow team

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87

Back to square one, GM needed 8 (or 7) weak tiles + 2 turns to fire up :confused: Guess the strong color theory or stacked theory doesn’t hold up. Tiles are simply worth more then we thought.

It’s hard to say if he needed just one or 2 of the last tiles combo.

(Oddly enough I ended up winning that raid :rofl: )

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A few months ago (maybe October or November) I investigated a little bit the mana that the defense team needs and found:

7 turns < very fast < 8 turns
8 turns < fast < 9 turns
10 turns < average < 11 turns
12 turns < slow < 13 turns

Defense heroes needed roughly one turn more than the number of tiles that the offense required.
Strong tiles with the initial attack gave approximately the same amount of mana as one turn.
Neutral tiles with the initial attack gave a bit less and
Weak tiles with the initial attack gave even less.

Every combo provides less mana. A strong tile hitting with the initial attack gives the most mana, a combo following that gives slightly less, the next combo less again and so on. At least for combo 10 the defense didn’t get any mana at all from tiles.

Here’s part of my records:
Any tiles that went with the initial attack were recorded as “primary”. Any tiles from following combos were recorded as secondary (which I then found to be insufficient information for a detailed investigation)

I collected some data from videos (that I don’t have anymore) and took a closer look on fast heroes.
defense mana was full with

  • 9 turns
  • 8 turns and 1 primary strong tile
  • 8 turns and 2 secondary strong tiles
  • 8 turns and 3 secondary neutral tiles
  • 8 turns and 1 primary strong tile and 1 secondary neutral tile
  • 7 turns and 3 primary strong tiles
  • 7 turns and 1 primary neutral tile and 2 secondary weak tiles
  • 7 turns and 3 primary strong tiles and 1 secondary neutral tile
  • 7 turns and 2 primary strong tiles and 1 secondary weak tile
  • 6 turns and 3 primary strong tiles and 1 primary neutral tile and 1 secondary neutral tile
  • 6 turns and 4 primary neutral tiles and 1 secondary neutral tile
  • 6 turns and 2 primary neutral tiles and 1 sec neutral and 2 sec weak tiles
  • 6 turns and 1 primary neutral tile and 3 prim weak tiles and 1 sec weak tile
  • 6 turns and 2 primary strong tiles and 2 prim weak tiles
  • 6 turns and 4 prim neutral tiles

insufficient were

  • 8 turns
  • 8 turns and 1 primary neutral tile
  • 8 turns and 1 primary weak tile
  • 8 turns and 1 secondary weak tile
  • 7 turns and 1 primary strong tile and 1 secondary neutral tile
  • 7 turns and 2 primary strong tile
  • 7 turns and 1 primary neutral tile and 1 secondary neutral tile
  • 7 turns and 1 primary strong tile and 1 secondary weak tile
  • 6 turns and 1 prim neutral tile and 1 sec neutral tile
  • 6 turns and 2 prim strong tiles and 1 sec neutral tile
  • 6 turns and 1 prim neutral tile and 2 sec neutral tiles
  • 6 turns and 3 prim strong tiles
    and so on.

As you can see it gets very complicated and I didn’t want to start all over again and take note even of the combo from which the secondary tiles came from, so I stopped there.

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89

You can not block a player on the forum. That is per Discourse.org Dev’s design.

You can flag actual abuse. You can like mentors. You can summarize a topic ( see Notes).

Notes

(Forum Toxicity - #82 by Gryphonknight)

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Thanks for the explanation @Gryphonknight.

I’ve made it very clear that I don’t want to be harassed by this individual and am uninterested in any interaction with them as they have nothing productive about this game offer. Talking about “smashing” another players “face” does constitute actual abuse.

I guess we’ll see if they continue to try and stir up drama within the community with additional off topic abusive and harassing behavior as this is clearly the intent of the original post.

Thanks again :blush:

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If you’re bothered by what another player posts, just flag it. If other players also flag their post, or if moderators review it and agree with your flagging, then that post will be hidden. Characterising posts as abusive and posters as trolls who are engaging in harassing behaviour is not constructive and might be argued to be an escalation.

I say this in full knowledge of my own hypocrisy as someone who has a history of squabbling. But we’re trying collectively to make the forum a more pleasant, less toxic place - even grumpy types like me. If you’re on board with that objective (as I guess you are from your plea for a civil conversation) then the best place to begin is always at home.

Your analysis seems smart. I certainly don’t agree with you that 13 turns to charge an average mana hero makes them unplayable in defence, and I don’t even believe 15 turns to charge would make a slow mana hero unplayable in defence, but it’s definitely a conversation worth having. I look forward to reading more of your thoughts and to seeing any data you collected in the past that shows different defensive mana charging from today.

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92

Hi,

Back to the topic…

i’m not an advanced player and what i read here worries me when i think of my defense teams…

indeed recently it feels like it is more easy to win pvps as an attacker… just a feeling no data here…
could very well be imagination or more experience or stronger heroes i use… or the change you mentioned…

when do you think something changed?

Is it already possible to draw a conclussion for our defense teams?
having 3,4,5 fast or very fast heroes there? right now i use 3 average and 2 fast…
(triton, boldtusk, kashhrek, danzaburo (to be replaced by leonidas when ready), sartana…
good, strong fast heroes… i don’ have so many… that’s why i’m worried…

Thanks,

Hermann

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Thank you very much, Zack! That is great research and information! :slight_smile: I will soon edit my initial opening post and will definitely include your information in there!

I am afraid, as you already mentioned, it gets very complicated to calculate the mana gain from a tile hit. There are just too many unknown numbers: mana reduction with combos, strong, weak and neutral tile mana gain just to name a few. But your research and numbers seem to be a good enough estimate for me to get a better grasp at how mana distribution for defense works and what to pay attention to! :slight_smile:

Hi Hermann :slight_smile:

IF (not proven yet) something ever changed, I assume the change was made early 2018, probably around the time Alliance Wars got introduced.

As far as your defense goes I’d suggest to have as many (very) fast heroes in there as possible. As shown by Zack, the tile hits and combos play a huge factor so it all depends on the player attacking you and his/her board and play style.

But if they are well aware of the mana meta, even a corner Alby or MN is no huge threat anymore, considering Alby and MN need at least 14 turns to charge if not hit by a single tile or any special that affects their mana.

So far, my main conclusions for defense (besides the charts that I posted above) from this thread are:

  • Mana troops matter more than ever on defense and have different break points than on offense.
  • The faster your heroes’ mana speed the better, especially for corner heroes
  • If you decide to place a slow hero in your defense he should probably be flanking the tank to get some tile hits and charge fast to have a chance at firing before he dies
  • Generally speaking, you should place your fastest heroes outside and your slower ones towards the middle. Keep in mind that this is just a general statement and hero placement also depends on the hero’s special skill.
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94

As for my research, this razor job is the one that most resembles reality

Definition of “Ghost Tiles”: Any number of tiles that do not hit an opponent (These fill mana in 1/2 of the regular time)

Mana Speed Tiles (Reg, Ghost)
Very Slow 14, 7
Slow 12, 6
Average 10, 5
Fast 8, 4
Very Fast 6.5, 3.25

Level at which there is a decrease in tiles using Mana Troops:

  • lvl 11 - very fast moves from 6.5 to 6
  • lvl 17 - slow moves from 12 to 11
  • lvl 23 - average moves from 10 to 9
  • lvl 29 - fast moves from 8 to 7

*Very Fast Ghost Tiles provided by @SWEG
*Mana Troop Levels provided by @Dante2377

-==RaZoR==-

The list above was assembled using several different sources. I did not find two sources that had the identical values or some didn’t include all the Mana Speeds. I feel this list has the most common values for each Mana Speed. It has since been updated to reflect other players knowledge of which are sited herein.

95

Thank you, rata! :slight_smile:

For offense the numbers are pretty clear and seem to be correct as you stated above, yes.

We were rather discussing the mana generation numbers for heroes on defense. They seem different than the numbers you provided for offense (which we previously thought were the same). You can read through the thread and see how they differ. I’m planning on doing a summary post about it soon. :slight_smile:

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wow I look forward to seeing you very well info to collect
I continue with analysis from another side I have not been in that part yet.

I lack the value of decrease of the mana to generate combos with the chips of the board. I can not find it

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I recorded a video and tried to calculate a percentage of mana gained after hits and at the end of the turn as a number of pixels representing the mana gauge.

I ran into some interesting observations that don’t really fit well into previous assumptions. You can do that too, by recording a battle and then analyze it frame-by-frame, measuring pixels.

Here’s my observations so far:

Enemy line consists of Evelyn, Boldtusk, Richard, Khiona and Musashi. All except Musashi has critical troop, Musashi has +9% mana troop.

During first round, Eve, Boldtusk and Musashi were not hit at all, and regenerated following amounts of mana:

Eve : 12 pixels out of 84 ~ 14.2%
Boldtusk: 11 pixels out of 84 ~ 13.1%
Musashi: 13 out of 84 ~ 15.5%

Khiona was hit with 1 strong tile (yellow) and immediately got 10% of mana, then hit with 3 green tiles combo and got 15% more mana (giving 25% of mana before end of turn bonus). After end of turn she got 31.0% of mana (+6%).

Richard was a tank, and got hit with 2 yellow tiles (giving him 16.6% of mana) and then I was unable to see his mana because of the combo text (but he was hit with 6 more tiles). Before end of turn bonus he had 42.8% of mana and after end of turn bonus he had 46.4% of mana (+3.6%).

On next turn, Richard was hit with 3 blue tiles and had 67.9% of mana (+21.5%) before end of turn bonus.
Noone else was hit at that turn, and at the end of turn following happened:

Eve got ~ +10%
Boldtusk got ~ +8.3%
Khiona got ~ +9.5%
Musashi got ~ +13.1%
Richard got ~ +8.3%

On next turn, Richard was again hit by 3 blue tiles and got +19%. Noone else got hit, and at the end of turn following happened:
Eve got ~ +10% (+11% on average for 3 turns)
Boldtusk got ~ +7.1% (+9.5% on average for 3 turns)
Khiona got ~ +7.1%
Musashi got ~ +8.3% (+12.3% on average for 3 turns)
Richard got at least +6% and was fully charged.

Later, Richard got hit with 3 green tiles and acquired +18% of mana for that.

My current observation is following:

  • Either mana gauge is not linear, or enemy heroes receive increased mana bonus on the first round (at least for the first hit)
  • Mana toops work as advertised on the defence
  • Strong/weak tiles has no bonus/penalty for enemy mana gain
  • Tile hit has diminishing effect during the same round. First tile gives most mana, tiles after that give less and less

My speculation is:
Bonus at the end of the round equals to one tile hit. If the hero was already hit with tiles on that round, bonus at the end will give less than if hero was not hit at all.
Multiplier for next hit is around 0.7-0.8 (I guess it’s 0.75). It looks like each combo increases the mana gain, so 2 sequential combo with 3 tiles will give more mana than 1 combo with 6 tiles.

So my guess is that if the hero was hit with 3 tiles and then with 3 more tiles on the same turn, mana gain would be (x + x * 0.75 + x * 0.75^2) + 133% * (x * 0.75^3 + x * 0.75^4 + x * 0.75^5), and at the end of the turn, the hero will gain 133% * x * 0.75^6, where x is the mana gain of the first tile.

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98

guys are forgetting something important to take into account that is:
the value of mana waives when making a combination of chips

  • On the one hand we have the type of mana: fast, slow, etc.
  • On the other hand we have the simple combinations (only 3,4,5 cards) that hit a hero x
  • On the other hand we have the simple combinations (only 3,4,5 cards) that do not hit the heroes
  • and then there are the combos which lower the mana value obtained per card. which is not taken into account.

ex: if a chip gives 3 points when hitting a hero,
4.5 when passing without hitting heroes,
when making a combo in the next phase each chip will give 1.5 then 0.5 and in the following combos 0.1
taking into account that a hero of fast mana needs 14 points to fill his mana.
this is by way of example the values are not exact nor correct. but I remember that the subject was raised a long time ago and I found that the numbers they provided were very accurate

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Why on earth wont the game devs just tell us the numbers? That is ridiculous, there is plenty of other bigger games on PC and such where you can find any value you want. World of Warcraft is a perfect example, and it didnt hurt them at all. I would like to know the logic as to why this needs to remain private information? I cant think of a single good reason that would hurt gameplay or the game itself, if anything it will improve both. It seems super shady to me they wont release the info.

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Any more info on this topic? Fascinating to see and would love to understand better

101

Hey,

unfortunately there is currently no more info. As shown in Damrius post, it’s very difficult, almost impossible, to calculate the mana gain from tile hits. There are just too many variables that we do not know.
What we are certain about tho is how much mana heroes on defense need to be fully charged and how much mana they gain after each turn.

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102

I’ll be back with more information about mana generation later, need to take videos with greater resolution to measure mana gains more precisely.

1 Like