New mana per turn calculation on defense? We investigate Vol 2

Hi Petri,

thank you very much for your response. :slight_smile:
Would you guys be willing to share the right numbers then? This would clear any confusion and disbelief.

The community numbers are currently as followed (not taking 4* mana troops into consideration):

Mana needed for each mana speed:

  • very fast: 650
  • fast: 800
  • average: 1000
  • slow: 1200
  • very slow: 1350

On defense:

  • 100 mana per turn (my calculations, however, show 80 mana per turn)
  • 50 mana per tile hit

On offense:

  • 100 mana per “connecting” tile (that hits an opponent)
  • 200 mana per ghosted tile (that doesn’t hit an opponent)

I’d appreciate any clarification. :slight_smile:

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Your numbers are probably right, I’ve never seen anyone produce proof for the numbers that are claimed for the defense mana gain

@Petri @Kerridoc so is it the case that per round the defence does not gain 100 mana?

We’ve had confirmation that it’s working as intended but pretty much every single player guide out there and the vast majority of the community are working based on an incorrect assumption.

Obviously I understand you may not want to give out actual numbers so in a simple yes/no scenario…

Does a hero on defence get less than 100 mana per turn as base mana generation(without buffs/troops/debuffs/talents taken into consideration)?

After over a year and a half of playing I actually just had to create a forum account to comment on this @Petri. Dropping the speed of defense heroes charging is game breaking. Raids already heavily favor the attacker but this makes average and slow heroes unplayable on defense. We’re not talking about some annoying after release nerf of a single hero here. We’re talking about fundamentally changing the game for the worse. This change breaks raids but more importantly it breaks war. Players have invested significant time and money into leveling specific heroes and troops over a long period of time and this change catastrophically ruins the best part of the game. Basically only very fast is playable on defense now. I’m extremely upset about this and hope you take how disappointing and game breaking this change is seriously. Even if most players don’t yet understand how game breaking this change is it negatively impacts the entire community. :frowning_face:

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Thanks! :slight_smile: That’s what I thought… I was gonna check later today but you were faster. Seems like SG didn’t change anything but it was rather false information by community calculations that made us believe heroes get 100 mana per turn on defense.

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Well done for finding it! It would be interesting if anyone can find some really early raid videos to see if it was ever right

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Interesting. Not sure if it got chipped away at in waves after we did the original calculations a year and a half ago but either way that video shows 9 moves to charge a fast and it now takes 10. Given the players current troop level they would have been at max level 17 eight months ago so it’s not a mana break situation either.

*7 months ago. Can’t count July and March given the date.

I too have been noticing how easily my teams with Ricard and Athena have been getting beat so easily by teams 300 to 400 lower power than mine…

And how easily (when I attack) it has been to beat teams with slow mana heroes…:expressionless:…with the exception of Santa…omg he’s hard to take down.

Hi @Petri,

Seems like players are able to demonstrate different behavior historically. If these changes were not intentional (logged), then is it possible other changes in mechanics yielded unintentional results. Pandemic is such a methodical analyst I would trust his diagnostics.

Thanks,

Jim

@Peterenp and @Aquaginera_7DD

You do realize that 12.5 (so 13) turns for average speed and 15 turns for slow speed to charge is both new and makes them unplayable right?

*unplayable on defense

Let’s keep this thread civilized please :slight_smile: Right now, for me there is no known evidence/proof that the 100 mana per turn and 50 per tile hit on defense were ever right/implemented in that way. So I currently trust Petri’s statement until proven wrong. We should all work in one direction and not bash each other. :slight_smile:

Hi Pan :slight_smile:

In my video that I posted above and recorded 1 day ago ([SOLVED] New mana per turn calculation on defense? 80 mana per turn instead of 100!) you can see that a fast hero with level 9 mana troop (= +7% mana gain) already charges in 9 turns (without being hit by a single tile), instead of the normal 10 turns. I assume Zero’s opponent had at least a level 9 mana troop 7 months ago. So between end of June and now it seems like nothing has changed in that matter.

Seems like either the break point is different or our assumed numbers for total mana needed to be charged are wrong. Here is a quick calculation that I did:

55

We know for sure that a fast hero charges in 10 turns on defense, without a mana troop and without being hit (I have proof for that if needed). And we know for sure that a fast hero with a level 9 mana troop (= +7% mana gain) charges in 9 turns on defense, without being hit (see video posted above).

a) Blue background: Assuming a fast hero needs 800 mana to charge, gets 80 mana per turn and has a crit troop, we would end up with the initially mentioned results: fully charged in 10 turns.

b) green background: Assuming a fast hero needs 800 mana to charge, gets 80 mana per turn and has a level 9 or 10 mana troop (= 7% mana gain), we do not end up with the results shown in my recorded video. According to my calculations - even when rounding up - a fast hero with +7% mana gain would still charge in 10 turns but my recording shows different. So something has to be wrong with our numbers… either the 80 mana per turn or the 800 mana needed to charge a fast hero. Am I missing something?

It sounds like you were involved in the previous calculations for mana gain on defense. Can you show your calculations please, so we can track it down? Or what were your calculations based on?

I do realize it, yes. But I am asking, is there any proof that it has ever been different? If so, can you provide this proof please?

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So I just got a response from Petri via my submitted ticket where I asked the exact same question as quoted above. Unfortunately, he cannot “disclose exact game design specifics such as numbers”.

However, Petri did not leave us with nothing and gave us a very important hint at the end of his mail (Thank you @Petri! :slight_smile: ) :

However, do note that the Mana needed for each mana speed is not the same for offensive and defensive heroes in raids.

So this could mean, that a fast hero that needs 800 mana on offense (assumption), probably needs around 1000 on defense (assumption) and still gains 100 mana each turn (assumption) which is why it takes a fast hero 10 turns to charge on defense without getting hit.

@Pandemic @JimMayehem I’m up for investigating this topic further. I appreciate any help. :slight_smile:
This is what I know and can proof so far:

  • it takes a fast hero without mana troop 10 turns to be fully charged without getting hit

  • it takes a slow hero without mana troop 15 turns to be fully charged without getting hit

  • it takes a fast hero with +7% mana troop 9 turns to be fully charged without getting hit

@Kerridoc Could you please move this thread to a different category as it doesn’t seem to be a bug?

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I just want to thank you for doing the necessary work on this. I’m following with interest, as I’m sure others are.

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This is interesting.

We know they changed mana speed a very long time ago.

We know they nerfed defense heroes mana gain from combos at least twice.

Do defense heroes gain different mana from a 3-tile than a 7-tile match?

Though the Devs do seem to like their 20% number on defense. Perhaps defense heroes require 80% of the mana versus the same hero on offense.

Argh. Too many posts to write. Not enough time for basic research.

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To contribute to this research, I have a couple saved videos with the following data:

It took GM 5turns and 4tiles exaclty to charge up (no idea of the mana troop level)
It took Magni 4turns and 7tiles (no idea of mana troop)

Is it worth it to continue checking without knowing the actual mana troop level lol?

So you’re saying that I get less mana from a combo? Do we know whether this reduction is exponential? Meaning, the longer the combo, the lesser mana I gain? That would make calculations way more difficult.

Interesting quesiton, tho I doubt it since heroes already gain different mana from the combos amount.

You mixed those numbers up, didn’t you? In your case, heroes on defense would charge faster than heroes on offense. But the opposite is currently the case: Heroes on defense charge slower (need more mana) than heroes used on offense.

I just plugged in the numbers for your +20% example, so that a fast hero would need 800*1,2 = 960 mana to be charged on defense. In my two examples it seems to be working out so far, assuming I get 100 mana per turn. :astonished:

  • A) Blue background: Assuming a fast hero needs 960 (800 + 20% defense “bonus”) mana to charge, gets 100 mana per turn and has a crit troop, we would end up with the initially mentioned results: fully charged after 10 turns.

  • B) Green background: Assuming a fast hero needs 960 (800 + 20% defense “bonus”) mana to charge, gets 100 mana per turn and has a level 9 or 10 mana troop (= 7% mana gain), we do end up with the results shown in my recorded video: charged after 9 turns without getting hit by a single tile. :+1:

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Thank you very much! Without knowing the mana troop level I am afraid this data is not helpful. Mana troops will impact the calculation in a great fashion so it is really important to know the troops as well.

If possible, please also provide recorded evidence.

On a side note: please pay attention to possible specials or talents that could affect mana generation in any possible way.

I’m recording a couple raids as we speak and I’m noting all that’s needed. Gonna share later on

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