New mana per turn calculation on defense? We investigate Vol 2

Let’s keep this thread civilized please :slight_smile: Right now, for me there is no known evidence/proof that the 100 mana per turn and 50 per tile hit on defense were ever right/implemented in that way. So I currently trust Petri’s statement until proven wrong. We should all work in one direction and not bash each other. :slight_smile:

Hi Pan :slight_smile:

In my video that I posted above and recorded 1 day ago (New mana per turn calculation on defense? We investigate - #16) you can see that a fast hero with level 9 mana troop (= +7% mana gain) already charges in 9 turns (without being hit by a single tile), instead of the normal 10 turns. I assume Zero’s opponent had at least a level 9 mana troop 7 months ago. So between end of June and now it seems like nothing has changed in that matter.

Seems like either the break point is different or our assumed numbers for total mana needed to be charged are wrong. Here is a quick calculation that I did:

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We know for sure that a fast hero charges in 10 turns on defense, without a mana troop and without being hit (I have proof for that if needed). And we know for sure that a fast hero with a level 9 mana troop (= +7% mana gain) charges in 9 turns on defense, without being hit (see video posted above).

a) Blue background: Assuming a fast hero needs 800 mana to charge, gets 80 mana per turn and has a crit troop, we would end up with the initially mentioned results: fully charged in 10 turns.

b) green background: Assuming a fast hero needs 800 mana to charge, gets 80 mana per turn and has a level 9 or 10 mana troop (= 7% mana gain), we do not end up with the results shown in my recorded video. According to my calculations - even when rounding up - a fast hero with +7% mana gain would still charge in 10 turns but my recording shows different. So something has to be wrong with our numbers… either the 80 mana per turn or the 800 mana needed to charge a fast hero. Am I missing something?

It sounds like you were involved in the previous calculations for mana gain on defense. Can you show your calculations please, so we can track it down? Or what were your calculations based on?

I do realize it, yes. But I am asking, is there any proof that it has ever been different? If so, can you provide this proof please?

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So I just got a response from Petri via my submitted ticket where I asked the exact same question as quoted above. Unfortunately, he cannot “disclose exact game design specifics such as numbers”.

However, Petri did not leave us with nothing and gave us a very important hint at the end of his mail (Thank you @Petri! :slight_smile: ) :

However, do note that the Mana needed for each mana speed is not the same for offensive and defensive heroes in raids.

So this could mean, that a fast hero that needs 800 mana on offense (assumption), probably needs around 1000 on defense (assumption) and still gains 100 mana each turn (assumption) which is why it takes a fast hero 10 turns to charge on defense without getting hit.

@Pandemic @JimMayehem I’m up for investigating this topic further. I appreciate any help. :slight_smile:
This is what I know and can proof so far:

  • it takes a fast hero without mana troop 10 turns to be fully charged without getting hit

  • it takes a slow hero without mana troop 15 turns to be fully charged without getting hit

  • it takes a fast hero with +7% mana troop 9 turns to be fully charged without getting hit

@Kerridoc Could you please move this thread to a different category as it doesn’t seem to be a bug?

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I just want to thank you for doing the necessary work on this. I’m following with interest, as I’m sure others are.

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This is interesting.

We know they changed mana speed a very long time ago.

We know they nerfed defense heroes mana gain from combos at least twice.

Do defense heroes gain different mana from a 3-tile than a 7-tile match?

Though the Devs do seem to like their 20% number on defense. Perhaps defense heroes require 80% of the mana versus the same hero on offense.

Argh. Too many posts to write. Not enough time for basic research.

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To contribute to this research, I have a couple saved videos with the following data:

It took GM 5turns and 4tiles exaclty to charge up (no idea of the mana troop level)
It took Magni 4turns and 7tiles (no idea of mana troop)

Is it worth it to continue checking without knowing the actual mana troop level lol?

So you’re saying that I get less mana from a combo? Do we know whether this reduction is exponential? Meaning, the longer the combo, the lesser mana I gain? That would make calculations way more difficult.

Interesting quesiton, tho I doubt it since heroes already gain different mana from the combos amount.

You mixed those numbers up, didn’t you? In your case, heroes on defense would charge faster than heroes on offense. But the opposite is currently the case: Heroes on defense charge slower (need more mana) than heroes used on offense.

I just plugged in the numbers for your +20% example, so that a fast hero would need 800*1,2 = 960 mana to be charged on defense. In my two examples it seems to be working out so far, assuming I get 100 mana per turn. :astonished:

  • A) Blue background: Assuming a fast hero needs 960 (800 + 20% defense “bonus”) mana to charge, gets 100 mana per turn and has a crit troop, we would end up with the initially mentioned results: fully charged after 10 turns.

  • B) Green background: Assuming a fast hero needs 960 (800 + 20% defense “bonus”) mana to charge, gets 100 mana per turn and has a level 9 or 10 mana troop (= 7% mana gain), we do end up with the results shown in my recorded video: charged after 9 turns without getting hit by a single tile. :+1:

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Thank you very much! Without knowing the mana troop level I am afraid this data is not helpful. Mana troops will impact the calculation in a great fashion so it is really important to know the troops as well.

If possible, please also provide recorded evidence.

On a side note: please pay attention to possible specials or talents that could affect mana generation in any possible way.

I’m recording a couple raids as we speak and I’m noting all that’s needed. Gonna share later on

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Should we maybe create a completely new thread for the testing and research?

I don’t think it’s necessary. I asked @Kerridoc earlier already to just move this thread into a different category and we should be fine. :slight_smile:

I just plugged in the numbers for slow hereos. We know that a slow hero without a mana troops and without getting hit takes 15 rounds to be fully charged.

Now again, assuming a slow hero needs 20% extra mana on defense (1200 * 1,2 = 1440) and assuming each hero gets 100 mana per turn, we end up with the observed 15 turns to be fully charged (green background).
My calculations show that with a 7% mana troop (level 5 - 10) the hero needs 14 turns to be fully charged (blue background). However, I was not able to come across a scenario to prove this calculation. So if anyone comes across a slow hero with a level 5-10 mana troop (should be 7% bonus) please record it and do not hit that hero with any tiles until fully charged. Actually, any mana troop will work… I can also alter my calculations to see whether they’re accurate.

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Gotta go back working, gonna try again later, but here I have:

Perseus with no mana troop, took 4 tiles + 8 turns exactly for him to fire up.

I had a nice count on Delilah too but I hit her with Leonidas which canceled the calculation :confused:

Thank you very much, I will analyze it later.

For future references: it would be best if the hero we’re trying to track is not hit by any tiles at all. Currently, the mana gain from a tile hit is still unknown/not proven so I would rather leave this variable out of the calculation for now. :slight_smile:

Edit: Ok, you changed the turns from 7 to 8. Now the 50 mana per tile hit seem to be correct again. :slight_smile:

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According to the calculation chart, 4 hits = 200 points + 8 turns = 800 points which means it took him 1000 to charge up, exactly like the old chart.

From my testing, A marjana with crit troops took 10 turns to charge, no tiles hitting her. A Gravemaker with a crit troop took 8 tiles to charge, no tiles hitting him.

These are awkward numbers.

Too early to “officially” confirm but it seems like our numbers were right for defense mana meta:

  • 100 mana per turn
  • 50 mana per tile hit (combos might be different?)

The new insight tho is that heroes on defense need 20% more mana than on offense to be fully charged, so on defense they need:

  • very fast = 780 (650 * 1,2)
  • fast = 960 (800 * 1,2)
  • average = 1200 (1000 * 1,2)
  • slow = 1440 (1200 * 1,2)
  • very slow = 1500 (1350 * 1,2)
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Perseus is Fast mana and should take 800 mana to charge

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Thank you very much!

That would indeed confirm once more the numbers that I just posted above.

On offense, yes. But not on defense. On defense he needs 960 mana to be charged it seems like.

Moderator’s note: I’ve moved this thread to Gameplay Help & Tactics and cleaned up the title. Let the research continue!

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The most reliable post I can locate:

Further reductions to opponent mana gain from combos made by the player.

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On this one Azlar with level 16 mana troop took 13 turns and one tile (1350 points) to fire :
3-2 raid test 2 - YouTube

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