Netherland Laws - E&P Future in Netherlands

Have no idea how it stands from regulatory point of view accross the world, but every time I pull the trigger I do have a feeling like the one I have in the casino. So, IMO this game may have a gambling mechanics, however, I can’t tell if it’s essentially gambling.

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Yeah I have that feeling too. This is essentially gambling. Thing is, all we pull has no monetary value, so according to the law it’s not gambling.

That doesn’t mean it’s not gambling, it means the law has not yet caught up with all the loot boxes and other ‘surprise mechanics’.

When we pull, it doesn’t have monetary value when we score a nice 5 star. It does however have emotional value, and the law says nothing about that unfortunately.

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Gambling addiction is actually more about the emotional fulfillment than the actual dollar reward, though.

I’m not a gambling addict myself. But I have known many people who are.

I have seen them win thousands of dollars. Then put all of their winnings back into the same stupid game until they lose it all. :man_facepalming:

For them, it’s not enough to come out ahead. It’s all about chasing that little 10 second high of “yay I won!” Doesn’t matter if they won a teddy bear in a carnival, or a million dollars in a lottery. Either way, they’re going to cash it in to play again. “DOUBLE OR NOTHING, SUCKERS!!!”

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The entire way E&P built is based on casino theories. They’ve got ‘near misses’ baked in throughout the game. They’ve got a “community” where you get to see people hitting the jackpot “I PULLED THE HOTM!” How many people excitedly yelled “I pulled Gefjon!” In your alliance chat?

Gacha is gambling. And there are not any protections for consumers like in traditional gambling. And game devs don’t have to pay hire gambling tax rates. Consumers also don’t have access to the annual spending reports required in gambling.

It’s a sham. I am guessing this is accepted because big corporations pay to keep it this way. But who knows.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ign.com/articles/heres-how-loot-box-addiction-destroys-lives%3Famp=1

When Ryan finally evaluated the damage, he found that he ultimately put about $15,000 into gacha games. He was horrified by the revelation, and resolved to seek treatment – but gacha games are a convoluted beast. Explaining their many nuances to a lifelong gamer is already difficult. Bringing that context to an addiction specialist completely disconnected from the culture is nearly impossible. In fact, out of the many doctors he consulted, Ryan said he only found one therapist who was able to frame his gacha dependency within addiction science. Because of those hangups, he resolved to speak about his recovery on the subreddits, as a way of creating some sort of foundation for anyone suffering the same affliction.

Until charges are brought to Zynga they won’t do anything. They won’t say anything. There’s too much money at risk, and they aren’t going to give that up willingly. They don’t give two ■■■■■ about the welfare of their consumers, even as it concerns potential gambling addiction being created in underage people.

And like any casino, they’re thrilled to have any customer who would be identified as a problem gambler.

SG and Zynga will get away with it until they dont any more. That’s something we can all look forward to, there are plenty of monetization strategies for video games that wouldn’t kneecap our collective enjoyment of a game. So, thank you to the countries who are taking a stand.

And a huge middle finger to Zynga/SG for not taking the initiative to be a part of the solution on this.

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I have seen so many lives ruined by gambling addiction.

In some cases, so bad that even some hardcore drug addicts can look at a gambling addict and say “damn kid, you’ve got a problem!”

I’m not even opposed to gambling, personally. Occasionally I like to visit a casino, toss a few dollars into a few games. But I know going in that I’m walking into a casino. I have to show ID to prove my age. Regulatory industry people are coming in to check all the employees and machinery to make sure no one is being blatantly ripped off. There are cameras everywhere to make sure that no one is "cheetah"ing (using this term so that my reply doesn’t end up in ‘awaiting approval’ limbo)

If you’re going to put slot machines in my video games? Fine. As long as I’m gambling with fake money. You want me to put real money into those machines? You’d better be offering to give me real money in return.

“No, no, the devs spent time and money to create this game, they need to be compensated for that”

Of course! Okay. How much?

“Oh this is free to play game”

Alrighty then. So I get access to the whole game for free, or can I only play up to a certain level?

“You can play for free forever”

Oh, that’s cool. And I automatically get access to all the game content, absolutely free?

“Well… not exactly. I mean, I guess you might get lucky and pull some good heroes for free, but most of them you have to pay for.”

Alright. Fair enough. I’ll take one good hero in each color to start. So what’s my total?

“Umm… I don’t know.”

What do you mean, you don’t know?

“It depends.”

Depends on what?

“On how lucky you are.”

Dafuq is that supposed to mean? Just tell me how much money the damn game costs.

“It doesn’t cost anything.”

:roll_eyes: Then tell me how much it costs to access the best heroes!

“That depends.”

On what??? How much money I spend??? Okay!!! Just tell me how much I have to pay!!!

“Depends on how lucky you are.”

:rage:

The hell kind of way is that to run a business? “You give us money, and we’ll give you… something. We can’t tell you what you’ll get! Wouldn’t want to ruin the surprise… just give us the money.”

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You’re right, but you can’t buy something that is a gamble except the at least offers. There’s always something that is guaranteed and there’s no chance to get nothing.

Pulling a 3* hero for 300 gems is about as close to “nothing” as I can think of. Might be technically legal, but that doesn’t make it right.

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For sure everyone is gambling for higher output, but in fact you get what you paid for.

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By this logic I could create a cash gambling app where I always reward a cash amount for every dollar spent.

Min $1 bet.

90% of the time user gets back 10 cents. 9% of the time they get back $2. 1% of the time they get $7.

Totally legal according to you because they’re always getting something back.

Still gambling.

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And that right there is exactly why I stopped giving them my money. I didn’t know the odds were that bad when I first started spending on this game. Now that I know the odds? I know it’s a ripoff, and I’m not giving them any more money.

Kind of sad, because I’m usually happy to support games I enjoy playing… but not if they’re going to set prices and odds like that.

It’s similar to the feeling I had after years of contributing to a charitable organization, only to find out later that less than 50% of my contributions were going towards helping the cause… while the “CEO” of the “nonprofit charity” was earning millions… :confused:

Really makes me feel nauseous once I realize that my money only went to line some rich person’s pockets. In the case of this game: I absolutely did not get “what I paid for”. At least not anywhere close to what I thought I was paying for.

Well, now I know.

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I hope sgg to loose money… Even if the game stops i will be more than happy to see them loosing. They are too greedy and deserve this!

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I will not go as far as saying if this game could be considered real gamble, but i guess the real question is how much this game mechanics resemble EA game mechanics.

  • Second question is if other nations as well will adopt this kind of regulation.

  • Third, how much dutch market is important for Small Giant and Zynga.

I think that where (and how much) these companies pay their taxes play a major role in that.

Here’s the issue though.

$1 means more to some than to others. It’s entirely subjective.

One mans rip-off is another mans enjoyment.

The model is the model, it’s not changed since it started. You either like it or you don’t.

Anything can be addictive if the person doing it has that personality. Healthy activities can quickly become toxic ones.

This game is what it is and my view from the start is people know the score and can decide what they want to do. Freedom of choice and no one forces anyone to spend anything.

Of course people with large wallets or big credit cards are going to get more than the person with nothing but tell me any hobby which this doesn’t apply to? You can play golf with a set of 50 years wooden clubs you found in the garage but the guy with the $3000 set of custom clubs will have a very clear advantage. Who’s to blame? Who’s at fault?

My wife does felt craft. Even in that there’s layers of cost. Better kits makes it easier and quicker but comes with large prices. Can someone felt craft for very cheap? Sure they can. Can my wife make more of it and faster? Yes she can.

Problem in this game is the “whales” are subjected to derision because they have the money to spend. I’m jealous too but I won’t drop $1000 to get a shiny ninja set of heroes.

Issue is this game gives those with no impulse controls an avenue to fall down the rabbit hole. How do you protect them from themselves? Because you kick them off the game and they just go find another one. They need actual help and this game isn’t the cause of that, it’s just another gateway for them to search for the endorphin hit of the “jackpot”.

But this debate has gone on since the game launched. The forum is littered with old threads complaining about it. The Nospend Movement has barely dented it and is just another set of people trying to force their views on someone.

I prefer to manage myself, spend in my budget and enjoy my life. If dropping £30 on some summons is a cost I’m happy to make them that’s on me, not on anyone else. Whether I feel happy or sad is on me.

That’s it really. I can’t sell anything on, it’s for my gaming enjoyment only.

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I agree. The feeling that I don’t get value for money spent has led me to decision to cut spending. However, it’s a question how many people are aware of that and wether the authorities should do something to reduce the chance of exploiting certain addictions or weaknesses. It has been done before, in many different areas - with some success, more or less.

Gambling in the UK has become more regulated and measures made to stop people destroying their lives.

But gambling in moderation is fun and I should be allowed to do it if I wish.

Unfortunately the people with the genuine addictions will find ways around it. How you protect them from themselves is a problem we will always have.

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Grindy

Until the entire freemium market place changes, especially USA and Asian, there are a lot of loopholes.

Notes

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Years ago, I suffered a shoulder injury that caused me to miss work chasing a limited time, Valentine event, 5* HotM Telluria equivalent in another mobile iOS game.

One reason I started playing Empires, it did not aggravate the not fully healing joint.

In the other mobile game, tapping quickly, for long periods of time on a piece of reconstituted rock ( glass screen ) is not recommended by most joint doctors.

This is also why I am not a huge fan of Titans ( “90 seconds of terror” ) or what I have heard about Mythic Titans.

FIN

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I’ve said this many times, born and raised and living in Vegas has its benefits. First, I’ve learned the house always wins. Don’t be a sucker. Second, at least if I go drop a 20 in a casino machine, I can sit there and get drunk for nothing more then a dollar tip per drink with a chance of winning real money. I drop 20 bucks in this game and I get dawa and get angry.

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In the end, the crux of it all and to belie and discredit the OP is simply direct from Netherlands:

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And even have to get up from the couch to grab a beer…

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The interesting thing on E&P, is that your “purchases” have no value - cannot be traded or sold - and all “your” content is owned by Zynga. It’s even worse than gambling as you pay for something that you don’t own and cannot be compensated for. It’s basically a taxable donation to Zynga.

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