Nerfing Guinevere or make a counter hero

I agree. We know getting to the top is relatively easy - no heroes are “required” for that purpose. We also know that no defence is good enough to keep a player in the top 100 - whatever heroes a player has, they will get raided away from the top as soon as they stop attacking (shields aside).

Guin is neither necessary nor sufficient. She’s nice on defence, no question, but let’s not overrate her.

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As I noted in a similar thread, Guin is definitely the best tank in the game, but has limited uses on offense. Also they have released counters - Panther and Red Hood. They’re just equally difficult to get.

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I agree with @wharflord. Guin is a one trick pony. Raid/AW defense is it (well technically a 2 trick pony I guess). I use Panther and Sartana plus whoever I need for her flanks. If I get the purples charged before she goes off the first time, those 2 take her down every time. That happens at least 50% of the time. You can not beat her with a rainbow team. Stop trying.

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I use a rainbow team very successfully for almost everything and I think colour stacking is overrated. Not for Guin. Double dark, at least.

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I’d put my money on Zeline. She practically has a counter for every team at FAST mana.

Panther is the best counter to the Queen. The 4’s mentioned by @FraVit93 are counters too. Too bad there’s a paywall to those too. Relatively cheap but a paywall none the less.

So unless you luck out on your HOTM and event pulls, press reroll. Or SGG can nerf the queen.

I think Panther and Zeline are very nice. I’d like to have them but I don’t, and I don’t have to hide from Guin. I double Sartana with Hel or Tibertus (sometimes both, if I’m feeling crazy), and win a lot more than I lose.

Double Dark sounds like a men’s fragrance endorsed by Darth Vader.

I rarely have to fight a fully levelled Guin in platinum but when I get to diamond, I hope the paradigm has shifted, both in game and on the forum, just for the sake of variety.

Regardless of whether she’s OP, I like to be able to synergize an interesting team. The entertainment value of the game is in the mental exercise, for me. If it’s Guin every time, it will become mundane.

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I’m sorry, but I have to say this: There are plenty of ways to beat Guin already and I think three nerfings are plenty for one hero. Everyone in the top 100 does not have Guinevere. Take another look. I have no trouble at all beating Guin teams unless I get a crap board. But the same goes for pretty much any other tank.

I would recommend trying to solve the puzzle of how to beat Guinevere. Others have done it and you can too if you try instead of asking for things to be made easier for you.

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Owl and boss wolf are kinda useless too in every other category yet they have Very Slow mana compared to Guin’s Average speed.

@Brobb
I think several hundred thousands of players don’t have Hel like me. :slight_smile:
Not saying she’s a hard counter to Guin but I’d take her over Sartana, Obakan, Quintus and Domitia on probably 90% of raids.

May I ask which is your favorite team against Guin? Let’s say you are attacking JimMe’s Panther - Zeline - Guin - Gravemaker - Panther
(Not sure if he still uses this.) Which heroes will you be bringing?

Owl is a vicious defender when used properly - not as good as Guin, but sneaky powerful when used properly. Based on the defences I see, players just don’t use their Owls properly. (I’d love to have an Owl. It would be better than having a Guin, I think, because players avoid Guin, but they line up to be beaten by Owl.)

Hel is a joy to play with, of course, but so are many, many other heroes. Players become obsessed with just a few (Guin, Alby, GM) and neglect the rest to their detriment.

Owl as a tank don’t survive to shoot. If it was slow maybe.

Owl should never be a tank, for obvious reasons.

Of course there are ways to beat Guin. That’s not the issue. If she was unbeatable the game would be condemned.
The problem is that it affects the balance of the game CLEARLY! The game doesn’t have the 4000 players that fluctuate on the top 130 alliances, we have a million players, and if you ask anyone NEW to answer : what do you think makes a top player? They will check the leaderboard and say instantaneously “90% have that yellow woman as tank”.
If the intention of the staff was develop a game where all players aim to have the same 4 heroes over and over in all teams, it’s already a failure from the starting project.
And the final and worst point of all: it is preventing the game to develop nice tanks!! We have a model SO OVERPOWERED that any other option became: a) bad b) not good enough or c) fu*k it, it’s the best I have.
It’s 100% sure that if we receive a great and awesome other option of tank (like aegir was thought) ALL the players who have Guin will have him too, and their teams will become even more powerful.
The balance and continuity of the game is on the edge, playing is getting REALLY boring, and raid on top raids is a matter of starting board. You know from start you will lose or win! It sucks BIG TIME, and worst of all is to know that it CAN BE FIXED! I don’t see a need to ruin Guin and even make her slow mana, but there are ways to bring her to a dealable degree. They get MILLIONS of dollars and can’t be stupid enough not to see this or be capable of finding a solution. We need variety, more options, good options, and JOY playing! It’s a game after all, for God’s sake. No one would mind to have Guin as the best tank of the game, but no need of such abyss between her and second place.
She doesn’t need the extra defense against purple, and healing is the only skill that she would apply for nearby allies.
Leave her average mana, heal over time to 3, and decreasing enemies mana. Period. End of skills. No need for more than that. Test that and see the result.

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Guinevere is by far the best defensive tank. If I had her, I would be mad if they nerfed her. I’m sure more counter heroes will come out.

So, the example you choose is someone with all Level 30 troops and all premiere heroes. I’d have to say that Guinevere is not the problem there.

Against that team I’d take Alberich, Panther, Natalya, Sartana, Panther. Yeah, it works. I’ve done it. You can also use the Hansel/Merlin team as well against his Defense. There are options. Just ask JimMe. He does lose raids. You can find him in Peer Support chat quite often.

Before your reply, It was quite an absurd response on my part because not many people can replicate that team, but the question was specific to one of the top defenses in the game. Against your average Guin team I’ve taken in my level 3-70 Panther, Natalya, Aeron, Kiril, Tiburtus and have done quite well. I have three Panthers. Two max, one at 3-70.

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There is a perfectly good reason Guinevere is a popular top tank and it’s not cause she is OP. Let’s just take a minute and look at this from a pure color of tank assessment.

Red - Obviously Athena teams will openly hunt red tanks making then fairly easy targets.

Blue - There isn’t really any viable blue tank in the game, sure Richard has high def, but he doesn’t have a team supporting skill or an all 5 debuff.

Green- Any green tank has to deal with the GM population and lots of red heroes have pretty high attack to burn anything green down.

Purple- Errr, Jackal- nuff said

There are powerful purples in the game but Guinevere is pretty tanky for a hero and it shows when you come across a Rana or Justice tank.
The reason there is no variety with tanks and defenses in general ( Zeline/GM flanks) is cause of the crazy attacking skills of some heroes making certain colors of tanks useless or just no real tank choices in the game.
Everyone complains about any tank that is troublesome to fight. Ares was often complained about when he was the top tank and he’s really not a great tank option these days.
Aiger would have given blue a very viable tank option but everyone jumped on the OP wagon cause he was actually a nice tank and SG has toyed around with him but he’s pretty bad as a tank now.

Guinevere fails at a pretty high rate so trust me when I say she isn’t OP. I believe you just need better tactics when approaching a tank like Guinevere or maybe your team depth isn’t ready for an 80 Guinevere just yet. I don’t believe we will ever see a variety on defense cause SG likes to pump out attackers more so than defense/support heroes and when SG finally released a completely defensive hero everyone was up in arms screaming for a nerf before actually figuring him out.
Maybe with the upcoming ways to improve on 5 stars we will have some better tank options.

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@Otto0000
It was on the top of my head. The ZGG trio in the middle was the important part of the defense though. Replace that Guin with a Delilah tank and I’m sure he’ll lose more.

While I agree that Yellow would be the most suitable tank color for now (Most don’t have Panther), there are other things to consider.

Couldn’t qoute the whole thing but it goes on to say that Gravemaker is the best punisher on bad boards. We’ll focus on the staying alive tanks part.

Skills that keep your tank and flanks alive are
in order of effectiveness(debatable):

  1. Heal
  2. Mana Reduction/ Mana Gain Reduction
  3. Elemental Defense Buff
  4. Summon Minions
  5. Armor Buff
  6. Riposte (to some extent)
    Blind and Debuff protection comes to mind but rare.
    (Please correct me if I miss anything/anyone)

Which 5* heroes are able to do some form of 3-man/team heal? Let’s not include the new elemental link.
Aeron, Vivica, Tarlak, Guin, Delilah, Red Hood

Which 5* heroes are able to affect the attacking team’s mana?
Guin, Boss Wolf, Hel, Alasie

Which 5* heroes are able to make a 3-man/team elemental defense buff?
Guin, Guardian Kong

Which 5* heroes can summon Minions?
Delilah, Red Hood, Thoth-Amun

Which 5* heroes can put up an armor buff?
Magni, Vivica, Khagan

Which 5* heroes have Riposte?
Boss Wolf, Elena, Obakan

Guin has some of the most effective skills in keeping herself and her flanks alive. And she does it all with Average mana. Of the mentioned heroes above, only Boss Wolf has tankier stats than Guin. Guin’s skill set is better and she is Average compared to Very Slow.

Guin is the best tank but she is the best tank by a mile. There is such a huge gap between her and whoever is 2nd.

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All the above plus guin isn’t hard countered by debuffers…
Her mana drain punishes everyone and prevents debuffer fro stripping her special immediately. Her heal then has time to work and her elemental buff protects her further.

This is the main reason aegir sucks and why ares completely disappeared. As soon as they cast thier special it gets debuffed before it can really do anything.

Guin is just far and away better and becuase of this she makes aegir and boss wolf to powerful with her… especially boss wolf was nerfed becuase when paired with guin… he was feeding her mana (and slowing opposing teams mana) as guin was draining the opposing teams mana and healing her tram. It was an endless loop that forced boss Wolfs nerf. Guin is poorly designed and ruins balance.

Hi Wharfie, it’s rare for me to come across a regular on the forum and one of the best player in the game, I use a team of reds & Wukong against your Guinevere. Took a bunch of trophies off you as well.

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Hi Wharfie, if you decide to revenge, I would like to see the vids as I like to see how my defense team hold up, thanks.

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