My thoughts about Wu Kong


**** Edit by Coppersky ****
This thread was closed because there were changes made to the heroes in later versions. Some of the information in this thread is now incorrect, like Brienne stacking with other regular attack buffs.


By now I think devs read this forum quite often, so let me throw my 50 cents about the attack buffs of Brienne and Wu Kong.

Just so people can also follow the thread, here’s their cards:

As you can see Brienne gives 79% attack boost for 5 turns, and get 13% extra attack every time they are hit.
Wu Kong gives 185%, plus -34% accuracy. In a way Wu Kong should be the 4* version of Brienne, but…

Ok, let’s consider how they actually work on the 3 faces of the game:
World/Campaign
Brienne’s boost and extra damage gets triggered a lot, specially against a lot of foes. In fact against enemies that do multiple target attack everyone gets a lot of attack. It’s really good.
Wu Kong’s boost usually works well, since even if you miss a couple special attacks, all you need is that one to land and murder the entire wave. The fact that even when misses happens the debuffs and secundary effects of the skills still work is a really great plus (not sure if it’s a bug though).

Raids
Brienne is completely amazing against multi targets teams, there’s no downside to it. Against her, if she uses her special you are screwed without having anywhere to hit, very OP.
Wu Kong in other hand is really useless, in a fight where you are in a race against the clock to gather mana in a efficient way in order to be able to kill the enemy having lots of misses and wasted turns is definitely your doom. Specially when the specials fail to land, that’s it, you done, the enemy will continuously get mana per round while you fail miserably to gather it. Of course there’s a chance you can land all of it and kill all, but raids are not places to “gamble” and waste time with misses. Killing teams with Wu Kong can be a bit tricky, since they get mana regardless the misses, but it’s not usually an issue, at least for me.

Titans
Brienne is an amazing hero to have, pump her with mana and murder the Titan, the fact that it can also stack with banners and other buffs makes her a really good support hero.
Wu Kong, a completely useless monkey. In a fight where you have to hit the weak spot to survive and make faster damage, having misses one after another is not only a loss in damage, it’s your death. 5 turns getting hit over and over by the Titan is suicide. And even if the Titan is weak, is a waste of time in a time centered fight.

So, here’s my problem, the almost 200% looks nice, but in game it’s a hero you cannot use in 2/3 of the cases, specially on Titan fights, who would go on a fight that is about to avoid damage with a hero that will make you take damage?

I understand the idea of gamble, that you have to “pay” for the high attack with something dangerous, but it being less accuracy is a too unforgiving punishment due the mechanics you yourselves created.

In fact, Brienne is a better hero than Wu Kong is just because you will hit everything guarantee and if you happen to get hit you get even more damage. While Wu Kong has no guarantees and if you get hit, you got hit, that’s it. And it’s a quadruple punishment, not only you won’t do damage, you don’t get mana, won’t trigger the weak spot mechanic and will waste valuable time. It’s suicidal.

I’m aware that he got a “fix” a few weeks ago, from -40% to -35%, yet you see people still avoid him like a plague. You guys have access on how many people uses him, tell me I’m wrong when I say no one really wants him. No reduction will fix the problem that he has against titans and raids, unless that’s an zero.

But no, not asking it to be zero, rather to rethink the idea behind him. A gamble? Ok. How about make it that when his skill is active you cannot use special attacks? That would be a gamble, really high damage for the price of not being able to use any special for 5 turns, like a voluntary silence. Or, how about decrease the armor by a x% amount, or decrease the mana gained by 5 turns, and things like that. Punishments and gambles, but that won’t interfere with a KEY mechanic in Titan fights, that won’t represent quadruple punishment.

Please make Wu Kong be a viable hero to raid and fight Titans with. Right now he’s just broken.

Thanks. :slight_smile:

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My first thought is: if I think a hero is not good enough, I don’t use them.

Second thought: please don’t go on and on about how faboo Brienne is, or the powers that be will NERF her.

Third: When facing teams with Wu Kong, I kill him first. I must not love monkeys.

:wink:

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Rook, first off, it’s not like I chose to get Wu King as a Hero, not like I can just choose any other to use instead. Second, I’m questioning and arguing about the viability of the hero, showing that he has issues that should be addressed. It seriously bothers me how people resorts to “if you don’t like it don’t use it” argument and variations, every hero should be usable regardless of liking them. I don’t like a lot of heroes, but they are useful in every aspect of the game in the right way, that’s not Wu’s case as I explained. If I’m using the hero wrong, which is a real possibility, please tell me how to use him that way. But don’t just tell me that I have to accept that he cannot be used and that I don’t get to question it because some other hero might be nerfed…

Actually I do think Brienne should be changed, I think she should get a, like 100% extra damage, but get a decreased damage every time she’s hit. That way it would involve a lot more strategy of not getting hit, hit the right heros/enemies not to be killed and have a “down side” to her amazing skill (that you’ll only see in 5* heros). The fact that you might be afraid that she end up being nerfed can be a proof that she’s no balanced and that’s not fair.

I have both of them and it’s not a good sign when I do more damage with a max 3* then an almost maxed 4*.

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Just a thought, you are right you didn’t “chose” him. But I will point out you do chose to keep and use him. You do chose to put in the effort to level and ascend him. When they nerfed him it didn’t take me long to realize he had become useless and the fact they did not seem open to fixing him meant he became food for the other heroes.

In any case, I hope you can pull a four star yellow you like to replace him in your teams. :grin:

Not really, he’s the only yellow I ever got with 4-5*, actually I got 3 of them, it’s seriously annoying. It was either Bane, or lvl the monkey. I don’t use his skill, but I use his stats that are double what bane had. It was about not having other choice really. Bane couldn’t survive the damage going on, I just had to move on using my only option. I used money to try getting a decent yellow, wasn’t happening, got another monkey…

When did they nerf him? Last change they made it better by decreasing his accuracy loss. That was a somewhat “fix”. Went from 40% chance of miss to 35%. I didn’t feel any difference thought, since, as I explained, his issue is deep down.

Regardless, me using a monkey or not, don’t change the feeling of it being “instant food”, and no hero should be a complete useless junk. I don’t know why you people are so interested in making this somehow my fault and make it all about question my reasons to level it instead of focusing on whether he’s a balanced hero or not.

I see a lot of people complaining about how Athena is broken because she’s no longer OP, and how they paid for it and all that, just because of a balance nerf, but as soon as I question a hero with deep mechanical issue, somehow I should shut up, it’s my fault to level it or should known better. What the hell? Even if I delete the ■■■■ monkey, even if I don’t have him, what’s wrong about questioning the viability of a hero and argue for his fix?

Instead of somehow making this about me, what about actually having an opinion about the actual content of the post? About agreeing or desagreeing on monkey’s viability?

5 Likes

I guess it comes down to what other heros you have in the team, what level of titans you’re fighting, what color they are and so on.
I’ve seen some tiptop scores against decent *'s titans from players using Wu Kong.

I think Wu Kong actually gives you a higher base damage per tile even with the missed tiles. If you can stay alive with dragon banners, arrows, pots and whatnots while maintaining the Wu Kong buff.

Is he the best hero in the yellow category? No. Is he a cool alternative card? I think so, yes. :slight_smile:
On that note, I do agree that it sucks you got 3 of him

Ps.
With “you” I mean in general, not you specific
Ds.

Yes, sometimes using all that and when the starts align and combos rain down my damage doubles against the Titans, but it might be a complete bad luck, that almost not happen and against 7-8* the Titan is quite unforgiving.

I agree, 7*+ hit like bricks and sometimes you just get unlucky.

I still think its a fun and interesting card though :slight_smile:

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Oh btw! Great write up! I really like the initiative and analysis that sparked the discussion around that game mechanics. We should have more of those :slight_smile:

Just because something currently is in one way, doesnt mean it should stay that way. Some heros might need a buff and some might need a nerf.

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Hey Mai,

Good write up! I would never use Wu in raids or on the map - but he actually keeps Joon out of my titan team. His 185% attack increase is well worth the limited accuracy in my opinion, but you would have to build your team and items around him. By using arrows to blind the titan and potions to keep him alive, he helps me hit fairly decent titan scores (around 20k/hit on 7/8*, 30k+ on 5*, hit 78k on a 1* once). I think the most important thing is that your other heroes are strong enough to withstand being hit. Once you don’t have to worry about constantly stunning the titan he is a must have.

Brienne on the other hand is simply too fragile for 7*/8* titans in my limited testing so far. May have to gear my team/items towards her a bit more and try some other things :slight_smile:

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@loorts , In my guild I do around that damage 15-20k with him but not usually using his skill. Another player uses Brienne, he does around 25-30k every hit. It’s seriously absurd…

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EDIT: Could not get quotes to work, so here goes cut and paste:

Quote Mai: Rook, first off, it’s not like I chose to get Wu King as a Hero, not like I can just choose any other to use instead.

Yes you can. I do it all the time. If a hero has less than stellar stats or results, they are FOOD.

…It seriously bothers me how people resorts to “if you don’t like it don’t use it” argument and variations, every hero should be usable regardless of liking them.

Why? Why should they? Not every hero is as “good” as another, especially factoring in one’s play style. I accept you are trying to quantify how bad WuKong is and agitate for change. That’s fine, that’s how you deal with him. It’s equally fine for me not to bother and feed him to another hero. shrug

If I’m using the hero wrong, which is a real possibility, please tell me how to use him that way.

I honestly don’t know; early on I was warned that he was a bad card, experience (fighting others in Raid who had him) bore that out, therefore I choose not to keep him.

Actually I do think Brienne should be changed, I think she should get a, like 100% extra damage, but get a decreased damage every time she’s hit. That way it would involve a lot more strategy of not getting hit, hit the right heros/enemies not to be killed and have a “down side” to her amazing skill (that you’ll only see in 5* heros). The fact that you might be afraid that she end up being nerfed can be a proof that she’s no balanced and that’s not fair.

If you’ve been here any length of time, you’ll understand that (undeserved?) Nerfs happen to characters all the time, usually destroying what value those cards had. My “fear” is not at issue. You are saying something should be changed, and I ask “Why?”

P.S. Brienne can still be viable when only two-shot killed by a Titan. When they one-shot her, she is of no more use.

I’m really interested in this thread @Mai
I’m using Wu Kong right now, probably because it is my only 4* yellow hero, and as one of us explained before, because it’s better than 3*-Bane and I don’t have any other right now.
I also think that is stressful to play with it… you don’t know what is going to happen when you are attacking… (-35% probably means that 1/3 of your attacks will miss…)… It’s not very important for normal attacks, and probably you are taking advantage of his ability… but when you are using other heroes attacks… and you see that your attack is nothing… bufff that is a hell… On the other hand, when you see that one of your attacks nearly kill everything it touchs… you feel just the opposite…

For me, it is not probably a matter of balance (I think it may be balanced…) but I feel it would be better to suffer just a -20% (you fail 1 out of 5) decreasing the boost given by Wu Kong… I don’t know… but trying to maintain that a 4* hero skill must be better than a 3* hero skill…like Brienne…

Thanks for opening this post!

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I’m reminded that cards come in families of powers. These two cards are unique.

Brienne can be used even if she is oneshoted. Since you ca instantly mana her up and use her skill right away before you cannot hit the weak spot and she probably dies.

If you can get to 15-20K on a given 7* or higher you are probably doing enough cascade combos on average to make Wukong worthwhile.

Even unskilled he pencils out at around 2x damage boost for the entire team, whereas Brienne starts at 1.8x and then as each character gets hit, gets a bonus… which doesn’t do much good in my case since I’m getting one shot without turtle anyway on most of my characters currently against 7-9*'s.

I somehow wound up with both Wukong and Brienne, but in trying to improve my anemic damage against the titans my alliance is fighting, I’m not even bothering to level Brienne whereas I am leveling Wukong.

I agree with @loorts analysis: I won a raid I flatly should’ve lost and it was because Wukong RNG (my opponent’s Wukong sitting in back right, not mine) hosed my opponent… on the flipside I tried against another wukong where I was expecting to win and my team was obliterated so the RNG is strong with this one. I’m also kinda dubious on map farming with him though I may try it when I get to the hard stages… maybe.

Titans though, after I finish jumping up and down on my shoulders enough to pop my head out of my tookus and start getting better hits on them, Wukong might be really good.

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True, though of course you’ll do more dmg if you can keep her alive throughout the fight and pop her special a few more times.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I just really feel that shouldn’t be that hard to do more damage than someone centered in Brienne. I swear to god, every since that player joined us, he sometimes do 40k damage with a ■■■■ Brienne, against a 7*. That’s a lot for a 3*.

Today we are skipping a 8* and he went “comando”, not using items, he’s doing less then 10k. Basically the difference is that he’s not pumping Brienne full of mana, hitting her skill and using a turtle Banner to try using her a second time. It really frustrates me that it’s almost every time a 20+ plus damage, while Wu is really about having a good combos to be able to get close to that, specially when he causes every special skill to miss. And I get only 15k average, even though I’m using arrow attack and dragon banner. I remember a single time when everything aligned and I got 38k damage. But if it’s bad luck or incompetence, that’s not at all worth it.

And I hardly disagree with the whole “when you get stronger the misses weak spot won’t matter much”, it might not matter in a way that you won’t be killed due that, but it does matter in TIME. Every time you don’t hit the weak spot you are wasting time, about one attack. Like I said previously, you don’t get damage, you don’t get mana, you don’t get the stun, you get hit and you lose time in a time CENTERED fight. You literally waste time over and over and over, not only depending on the board to have the tiles in the right position, but also on luck to hit.

I’m not saying at all that he can’t do damage, he has a good attack stat. I’m saying that this “gamble” is havelly stacked against the player, really havilly. You are trading higher attack for 1/3 of chance to not do damage, so not get mana, waste valuable gathered mana when missing a special, and in Titan fight getting hit and losing time. All of this makes using him very tricky and most of the time he will screw you over.

I really feel that he shouldn’t be humiliated like that against a 3*. Now everyone in my Alliance is going for the ■■■■ Brienne and they all reaching numbers like mine, having different teams and even lower power teams. It’s really making me frustrated about Wu’s.

I get that they are different unique heroes, but they are supposedly the same kind, heroes made to increase your team damage. But right now Brienne has no downfall and a great skill, while Wu’s has everything stacked against him. If the odds are gonna be that bad, if it’s really intended to be a real gamble, that 185% extra damage is not enough to make us take the gamble everytime. Having the “best outcome” of this gamble should be really high damage to pay for all that bad luck and 15k damage that you do when thing don’t go right.

Again, I’m not saying nerf Brienne (they use lots of items to make her work and that sounds far). I’m trying to convey how Wu’s, while having a good attack stat and being capable of decent damage in the right moments, have a huge mechanical problem against fights that are TIME centered.

It’s my personal opinion that the time aspect should be take into consideration and maybe have it change somehow. A simple, change from it gives you a 1/3 chance to miss to it gives you a 1/3 chance to do 1 damage would be a HUGE ABSMALL AMAZING SUPER game changer. You wouldn’t do damage, your skills might fail, but you would still get mana, you would still get the weak spot hit, and the time issue would be completely gone.

@Petri, be a lamb and change the 35% chance of miss for a 35% chance of doing 1 damage, will ya? :stuck_out_tongue:

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Well I can’t really debate anything you said Mai as it’s all legit and I do like the proposed change; however, how many times have you tried Wukong’s skill on titans?

Admittedly he’s going to increase one’s variability on titans with regards to damage, which are already a highly variable fights at least for me. In theory over enough runs he should come out ahead (and this is frankly seriously difficult to tease out, different titans, different boards, even different titan hits vs. misses on which hero, etc ad naseum).

“All specials missing” is almost assuredly subjective (sorry my forum friend!) but other than video recording and counting after the fact I don’t know if the pacing of a titan fight really allows one to track that objectively though.

I guess I can level Brienne too since a 3* is cheap cheap, and try to directly compare though I think I’ll have the same problem of RNG being RNG and incredibly limited sample size.

I’ve been using Wu for a month now and I’m an active player, I’m using every Titan hit I can. It’s not a empty “just got the hero and I don’t like it”. I tried a lot with him, even tried him with Brienne, but The cost of doing that was too high (mana potion wise) so I need a better potion and kinda shelved the idea for now.

That’s the exactly source of my frustration, me and this other player hit every single time, and he’s damage is higher and solid. I need a lot, A LOT of luck to get the A+ from him. And even if when I do it’s not by much. Imagine two very competitive players finishing every Titan with 120,000 damage every time. Wu’s don’t give me an edge AT ALL.

And I’m definitely not saying the game must be broken cuz I can’t do damage. I’m openly asking, is it me? Am I not being able to get those 30k from him that everyone else can? Or is it a issue with him? I failing really badly and being a complete fail is definitely an option here lol

I guess my main objective would be if the devs would read it, consider my arguments, test and day “No, we test it out, that’s how we want it to be, you are not using it right”. And I’ll make my peace with him. And just accept he has to go at some point.

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