I personally don’t see him as horrible either, I see him as being okay situationally. Would be the first to get tabards from me? No. But there are players way worst than him. I’d take Mok over Quintus.
My question would be why would you take Mok-ar over Quintus?
May be it will give me a better case for the shark.
@Oliz Better def/hp and faster mana. i’d Prefer Mok on a purple mono team as my AOE over Quintus any day.
My order of choice would be Ursena, Mok Quintus in terms of chosen AOE hero on mono team.
Thats exactly why the shark is a very bad design. He is very niche, just think about it, how much do you do mono purples? 1/100? 1/200 even less? And even in that role he is not the first hero to pick, there is Panther, Victor, Hel, Kunchen, Sartana, Ursena, Seshat or Khiona and Domitia even some 4s like proteus is picked for a purple mono before the shark.
Yeah there are one-trick ponies, like Guin, but when you ask 100 players to name the 3 best tanks how many will mention Guin in that 3? Probably 95 or even all of them. Not speaking of the fact that having tanks are a necessity, using mono purple is not so the shark is even more niche.
He is very niche, not awesome in that niche and has crippling downsides. Does he worth 6 tabbards? Totally not. So there is a hero who by design does not worth fully ascending. How do we call this? Yes, a bad hero.
Oh and one more thing, when we compare the shark to Quintus, we unknowingly aknowledge that the shark is bad. Mok-arr is a relatively new release Atlantis 5, not a regular TC20 hero like Quintus. So when he can only be compared to a C grade TC20 hero then something is clearly wrong with him. He should be compared to Ursena, another Atlantis 5* purple AoE, but no discussion that the shark is nowhere near Ursena.
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If I had all the heroes needed to mono I’d mono my entire game and purple actually is high on my list as I have the most heroes there next to holy. So I’d mono using Panther/Kunch/Seshat/Kage and either Urs or Mok…
Just remember for what one may think isn’t a good hero someone else may find use for. I would never in my life level Atomo unless I had absolutely no choice and couldn’t get any greens ever, but I know a person who has several of them leveled and swears by them, and he’s a top player…
In my personal opinion, he’s super niche, but not super bad, I’d level him at some point and actually plan to.
Versatility alone doesn’t make a hero good or bad. IF the main arguments in this thread were:
- I don’t use dark mono so I don’t have much use for this hero
- I’m an early/mid-stage player so my bench isn’t deep enough to properly use this hero
Then I would see those as valid arguments against a SINGLE player labeling him as “not useful for me”. But that’s not the case here. Folks are blindly calling him a bad hero (and I’m guessing they are doing so without ever having used him).
And yes, mono does have risks. But it also has rewards. I am generally a 3/2 player. But there are times when I am raiding against teams WAY higher than what I can reasonably field and mono make the most sense (looking at you @Ender_BattleSchool and @Wormwood). So in that instance, considering I have OK depth, but still lack the “perfect team” to tackle the best players in the game, Mono (and situationally, Mok Arr) makes sense for me.
Also, I can see a mid-stage FTP player pulling Mok Arr and getting great use from him. FTP’s don’t get to be choosy and it might be their only dark 5*. In that case, they could get great utility from him for color stacking for titans, going through the map, raiding above their weight class etc.
;-;-;-;-;-;-;-;-;-;-;-;
Well, I certainly wouldn’t classify my points or understanding of advanced game mechanics like that, but carry on.
Not sure if your point is that you don’t think this happened. Or if you are saying videos don’t make him good.
Well, screencaps below since your comment “you claim” goes to wreck my credibility in this discussion. And correct, a video in a vacuum doesn’t prove a hero good or bad. But… and follow me here (which for whatever reason seems difficult)… other people with more experience back up my points made here. He is useful. It is on a dark mono team. Just because that isn’t useful FOR YOU doesn’t make him a bad hero.
False. How would you know that? How would you go about proving that? Do you know the timing of those videos? Do you know his roster? Do you know his normal raid teams? Please try again with a logically sound argument. Because this ain’t cutting it. Even if he did, he went 4/4 against A+ teams with a 3/70 hero. and won. easily. With Mok Arr. Apparently the worst hero in the world…except it turns out he isnt.
Not worth it to YOU and not worth it are very different concepts. I’m not sure you are grasping that.
This would actually be more aptly applied to your arguments. “He isn’t worth it for you, so he isn’t worth it for anyone” is functionally your argument. While mine is “his utility is narrow, but still could be useful”. And to bring it all the way home for you…
Duct tape may not be an ideal building material for ships. But in the right situation, like you have been shipwrecked and need a way to get off the island and you happen to have a bunch of duct tape, Duct Tape might be a great option.
Aaaaaand im just going to go ahead and tag @zephyr1 since this will be flagged by someone who is upset with logic. I’ll take my flag now.
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Ok, so you say that he is not bad because he can be used in his very narrow niche and there are some very wealthy players who can afford to spend 6 tabbards on him (if i remember correctly even your friend who sent you the videos did not ascend him)? I think we have a whole different definition of a hero being good.
In my book a hero is good when:
1, The hero has a role in the game
2, The role he/she fills is actually useful
3, The hero has versatility
4, The hero does not need specific other heroes to make him/her viable
5, The hero has a useful special skill
6, The hero has decent stats
So if a hero lacks in one or more of these points, but make up for it elsewhere it can still be considered a good hero. My problem with the shark is that he lacks in role (as you also stated he is very niche), the role he fills is not useful compared to other major roles, he lacks at versatility big time, needs other heroes to make him work, ok the special can be good and his stats are not bad, but a can be good and a not bad simply cannot make up for all his downsides. The price simply outweighs the gain.
And yes when i say he does not worth it i think that most people would agree with me, as not many of us can spend so much on this game to afford ascending a hero that has a so narrow usability. According to a poll on this forum 74% of the players do NOT use mono stack in raids.
Yes as you stated versatility is not everything, but take a look at the heroes who are generally considered good. They are very versatile (like GM) or do very well in their respective role (like Guin). The heroes who has a narrow niche and that role is not that important are simply cannot be considere good in this game, just take a look at those heroes, G. Owl, Gobbler, Margaret, Cpt. of Diamonds for example. Yeah they can shine in very rare circumstances but that does not mean they worth all resources they require to level up.
Yeah, in some other games there are cards weapons, chracters, etc. having crippling downsides or very strict circumstances which you need to fulfill to play them but they have immense power when their criteria is met. Like Exodia in Yu-Gi-Oh!, you have to have all 5 pieces of him, you have to play them and you have to keep them alive for some time which is hard since the pieces are really squishy, but if you menage to do that he can win you the game. So its a high-risk high-reward play. Mok-arr simply does not have a strong enough special to justify for all his downsides and limitations.
I already posted some ideas how to make him a viable hero, some of them are focused on keeping his stacking role in a way so the risk would actually worth taking. So i think he should be made less niche or more powerful in his niche to make him worth the mats, because in his current state he clearly does not. And that is supported by the fact that he is very rarely seen on the battlefield, which is a shame since he is a rare atlantis 5*.
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Well I still don’t get your argument, if versatility doesn’t well define usefulness of a hero, would a hero you can only use in just one way, only offense and in mono, be a defining factor of its usefulness.
You related it to FTP, and limitation of bench, check it, would player with limited bench not prefer heroes that can be used in multiple ways particularly when you have to invest ascension items on it?
I am not even sure, you do have this hero in question, many players even with deep benches all alike opted that this hero need rework and as it is, its bad. Does a flash of mono team raids video makes it good?, what about those who don’t even have the right supporting dark heroes in its mono team? Or is it not clear that Mok- Ar is the only Legendary that cannot hurt any dark hero in enemies team and would need another dark in the mono team to help do the required damage?
Are we arguing back and forth on this just to prove who is right or actually focusing on this hero that many would pull and sigh, oh I pull Mok-ar oh Atomos, yet I see Atomos in defense more. And would you say the reaction was because it is Mok-ar or because of its limited use aka niche.?.
Even in offense, I tried other means just to have other supporting heroes that are not dark, I placed this shark between two Margarets just to mitigate it’s unneeded damage to its team, then alas, the team becomes less optimal as a slot was wasted for him, now the default is dark mono and only in offense. So how else can it be labeled?
The title of this thread indicates the need to have it re-thought or say rework, and I would guess that many of those who have him even the ftp would appreciate if it is reworked.
I like your logic. I like your style of analysis. I found myself nodding at some of your points.
I was judging you based on us disagreeing that Mok-Arr is bad/good. For that I apologize.
I would like to establish a baseline, and then continue our discussion, and not just about Mok-Arr.
I would like to discuss other things with you as well.
Would you please define a good hero?
Would you please define a bad hero?
Actually its pretty rare nowadays to have this type of argument going on without encountering personal offense in the first few posts. Im very happy about it.
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Hey, I’m not trying to be contentious and for those that find the forum/this thread looking for guidance that isn’t diehard like most of us, I want them to know that the 5* they pulled isn’t a waste of time, or there is hope, or they can use them if other options aren’t available (this is a more general statement to my posts, not just on Mok).
I appreciate you appreciating a logical response, argument, or analysis. I will admit I get frustrated with poorly formed arguments and posts that rely heavily on logical fallacy. As such, setting a baseline sounds like a fantastic idea.
But if you will allow me just a touch of latitude, I would like to slightly reframe the question since I made the mistake of bringing Guin into the discussion a few posts back.
What is a Great v. Good v. Bad hero
What is a Great Hero?
A great hero is a class defining hero and could generally find a home on any team. This could encompass a number of factors. They might be weak standing alone, but when stacked with other heroes they have synergy with, make the rest of the team shine, looking at you titan specialists and elemental def downers. They might have crazy fast and brutal special, oh hey there GM. Or they may fill a role so perfectly it is hard to imagine another hero doing it better without being OP (our favorite holy mana stealing lady tank). These are the heroes we yearn for and jump out of our seat when we pull or sigh when we have to face them AGAIN in a raid.
That was easy to define. Now it gets a bit more complicated. I’m going to take a slight detour before I get back into definitions.
Where most of us stumble on good v. bad (in my opinion), is thinking about our own rosters instead of the hero as they stand.
I have a use for Mok Arr. For me, he is a good hero (not great, good). I am deep on great Dark heroes. I have Hel+7, Seshat, Sartana 3/70, Rigard+5, Tibs +4, Proteus, Thoth 3/70 (I regret this), and Merlin/Gafar on their way to being maxed. I also have the following at 1/1 2x Hel, Kage, Mok Arr, 3x Domita, 2x Quintis, and a slew of great 4*s. When I run mono (or 4+1), Mok Arr would fit in nicely with Hel, Sesh, Tibs, and Rigard. He hits everyone fairly hard for an AOE and is faster than Quint which I appreciate. Even if I went 4+1 and subbed in Ariel for Rigard which I commonly do, the damage he would do to my +7 ariel isn’t serious and I can time it to happen right before (or after if her health is low) I fire off her special. My ONLY problem with Mok is that I don’t have enough tabards for him. I should additionally add that personally I enjoy finding weird synergies between heroes and playing around with lineups to uncover great teams for wars and varied situations.
If you (not you per se but someone with Mok Arr) are early-stage, or only had a few dark heroes, or never run mono. He would be a bad hero for you…today. But we all know this game is a marathon. He may still hold value for you down the line. But it is EASY for me to see how he could not be valuable for an individual today and how the excitement of having a 5* may be overshadowed by him not being to perfect fit for your game stage/style of play.
Now back to definitions
What is a Good Hero
A good hero has a well-defined use (Tank, flank, healer, debuffer, sniper) and base stats that are either average/balanced or make up for a different weak spot. I believe these account for most heroes in the game. There is a wide range of good and your mileage may vary.
What is a Bad Hero
A bad hero shines at nothing. In most instances, there is a better tool in the toolbox to get the job done. I would also pose that some of the heroes who have specials that are heavily subject to RNG are bad. These heroes redeeming qualities are so overrun by their beatability, counters, etc, they can only be classified as bad. I belive very very few heroes fall into this category.
I think that is a good start…
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I also have a fairly deep purple bench of 4 and 5s. I have Khiona, Seshat and Domitia maxed, Mok-arr, Quintus and Obakan at 3/70 and Gafar, Proteus, Rigard, Cyprian, Tiburtus and Sabina maxed.
I got the shark in the first atlantis portal open, and i was pretty disappointed as i found him the least desirable from the atlantis 5s. But i have a tendency to try to make the maximum out of what i got so when i had nothing else to do, i leveled him to 3/70 and started experimenting with him. I did not have my seshat back then so i had to use my 4s or a 3/70 5 for the tests, and even then when i did a mono where he was replaced by a healer, or Tibs, or even Cyprian, i got better results. Now that i have Seshat if i had to do a mono i would do: Seshat, Khiona, Domitia, Proteus, Rigard (or Tibs). I simply find no reason to use the shark instead of Rigard or Tibs. The sniper trio has good synergy with Khiona’s buff, my Proteus is +20 so he is like a 5* so i could only replace the last member with the shark, but giving up the heal or def down simply not worth him putting into the team.
So all-in all, he is a bad hero for me, because he is very niche, his role is not useful for me, and even in that role he does not shine. I only use him in the Shiloh quest just for fun and for him to see action.
As i stated before according to that poll, 74% of the voters does not use mono in raids, so only 24% would potentially find the shark useful. Minus those who does not have the bench to support him and those who have way better purples to make that mono, so only a fragment of that 24% would find the shark useful, it seems that you are among them. But in my book a hero who can be useful lets say to 10% or even less of the players is a bad hero.
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And we can agree to disagree from here on out.
FWIW, a random pole that I have zero visibility into is not compelling whatsoever. Who participated? How many people? What’s the demographics of the people who answered? “Data” like that is not only not compelling, but often misleading.
I have seen no data to support this.
- How many players have 4 maxed dark heroes? There is your number of players that could potentially find him useful today
- How many players have 3 maxed dark heros? There is your number of players that could potentially find him useful in the near future.
Your math/usage of that statistic is doubly misleading. You say that 24% are willing to go mono and then only a fraction of that 24% have the bench to support mono/are so deeply slacked that Mok rides pine forever?
You took a vague statistic, applied interesting logic to it (I say as a participant in the survey I go mono…but I don’t have the bench to support mono…that doesn’t make any sense), and poof: 10% OR LESS!
I think the definition of being potentially useful is too broad.
Lots of heroes can be potentially useful to any roster.
A better way may be if, a person with 4 dark heroes, having newly acquired Mok, how much Mok would bring to the table in terms of forming a mono dark team. Would the win rate go up by a lot, as though he is the last missing piece of the puzzle? or if any other dark hero be used in his place to form the mono dark team.
He may be truly great in a mono dark team, but I personally feel his damage output is less than that of guardian kong or even anzogh, who deal damage to all without any colour restrictions.
His damage output is better than those two to non-dark heroes, so it would depend on the defense team or map level.
| Hero | Damage before modifiers |
|---|---|
| Ursena (HP<50%, non-yellow) | 950.3 |
| Ursena (HP<50%, yellow) | 1330.42 |
| Anzogh | 1500.7 |
| G. Kong | 1729.2 |
| Mok-Arr (blue, red, green) | 1852.5 |
| Ursena (HP>50%, non-yellow) | 1976 |
| Mok-Arr (yellow) | 2593.5 |
| Ursena (HP>50%, yellow) | 2766.4 |
I threw Ursena in there though, because she’s clearly a better version of him.
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Yes, but there is usually at least 1 dark hero in the def team, so most of the time his total damage output is less?
Except since mok arr doesn’t hit dark hero’s and has lower atk he does less damage overall!!! Plus damages your own team… he might have better hp and def but that doesn’t help his role…
I mostly mono titans… I have 3 mok arr guess who’s still at lvl 1? Panther, kage, khiona, hel, miki… if I had ursela she’d still be higher up then mok arr…as would sheshat and kuchen heck even Tiberius is still better then mok arr on titans.
The only reason this thread is at ~180 posts is that every time mok arr gets featured people get pissed they get him becuase he sucks. This isnt really debateable as the vast majority of people posting here think this. And the best we got from his supporters is he’s niche and okay… really this is your endorsement? Heck the other ringing endorsement for him was someone saying thier friend has him at 3/70 and can kill harder teams… really??? Your friend thinks he’s okay enough to ply with but passed over ascend him!!! This is your defense of mok arr! He’s awful… he was awful on release… he’s more awful now that the core hero’s and event hero’s all received a balance patch. He will be even more awful when costumes comes out… he’s one of the worst hero’s fighting guardian owl and Thorne for the honor of most useless hero’s and Thorne already got a boost and is receiving another soon (as is owl but t won’t help him much).
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Well again, 
depends on the team. G. Kong yes would hit harder in terms of total damage to 5 heroes, if we assume rainbow team (even counting Mok’s yellow extra damage). Anzogh, no, but again that’s assuming rainbow.
In practice abilities that hit all heroes doesn’t always mean they will hit a total of 5 heroes total either. With tile damage factored in, you may have already killed the tank or possibly a flank if you got lucky.
Against a defense with a single yellow tank, for e.g., it’s likely the tank will die before Mok can even fire, meaning his skill may not even matter by the time it’s charged.
Against a team with yellow flanks, he may be more valuable.
Mind you this isn’t me arguing that Mok is a good 5* hero. In fact this is arguing the opposite: because Mok doesn’t hit dark enemies, this makes his use case very specific against certain defenses. 
The point of that damage chart is just to be a raw comparison of each heroes damage factor too. Damage isn’t everything in a skill, and it’s not an end-all guide to which hero is better.
Though in the case of comparing Ursena → Mok-Arr (where she’s clearly better than him, because she hits dark too and the other colors harder than him!), that table serves a good purpose at highlighting that difference 
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Ok thanks for the detailed analysis.
I guess the take home is that ursena is the ultimate AOE hero 
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