Match raid adversaries based on Team Power (not cup tier)

I would rather see a matching/handicapping raid system based on Team Power rather than Cup Count.

SG should reduce food/iron accumulation at the watchtower so hams & iron aren’t the primary motivations to go on raids.

Players like me who enjoy going on raids do it for the thrill of tactical warfare (and for something to do between map play, titans and alliance wars).

Small Giant should consider what veteran players (and newbies like me) have to say about raid incentives & disincentives, and modify the game accordingly.

I wish I knew what it was.

For the last week or so my choices have been 100-500 hp higher and higher cups as well. Been grinding my way against healer/riptose heavy lineups.

Just hit 3000 hp and been between 1400-1600 cups.

Not fun. But I do enjoy raiding.

I do love stealing some ham though.

In plain English, I’m arguing that it’s more fair for E&P to offer matchups for raids by using maximum team power scores rather than cup totals (that may or may not reflect the potential strength of the adversary).

It would still be up to five Heroes per team, but you would decide how strong or how weak that team is, based on your hero collection.

E&P would then find a opponent of approximately the same team power. The higher the team power, the greater the risks and rewards would be for both combatants.

Revenge raids would be regulated the same way so that felcherslikeyou can’t use a stronger team to slurp up loot from weaker oppnents.

My suggestion to reduce Watchtower ham and iron deposits is based on a consensus in another thread that the practice of “cup dropping” is currently beneficial to veteran players.

Cup dropping is dysfunctional, & likely and unintended consequence of game design for raids.

3 Likes
  1. matching based upon power versus cups.

I had written elsewhere, you’re probably better off with a composite. Power at lower levels may be better for matching. Since a 1500 matched against 1650 is at a 10% disadvantage, while a 3000 matched against 3150 is 5% disadvantage. On paper the 1500 has a tougher matchup. So focus on power at lower levels is perhaps more important.

Also at higher levels, there should be a focus on trophy count as matching mechanism for a number of reasons… one because you want players at some point competing for the most trophies. And two because when power levels are near equivalent at that level, it doesn’t mean that the builds and optimal heroes are equivalent on both sides. At that point, trophies are going to be a better matching tool.

Trophy gain / loss would need to be adjusted too.

Where the problem comes in is what Loro was bumbling towards- what does this look like, how do we implement it?

Here’s the best way I can figure:

  • attacking Player power is the sum of the power of their best possible team comprised of one hero of each color.

  • defending player power is the sum of their top 5 heroes.

Basic formula:
If Attacking Trophy (AT) <1200 then

Attacking Power (AP) is sole means of matching.

  1. attempt to match AP:DP 0.975:1.125 … increase at intervals of 0.025 until closest match is obtained.
  2. if no matches are located within 0.25 (25% power) then the 1200-1800 formula below is instead utilized.
  3. trophy gains based solely upon AP:DP ratio versus trophy ratio as currently used.

if AT 1200-1800 utilize composite search methodology:

  1. attempt to match AP:DP 0.975:1.125. Re-rolls alternate between AP:DP matching and AT:DT matching with expanding search criteria.
  2. trophy gains determined by summing the AP:DP and AT:DT ratio. A heavy disparity in either will quickly be corrected utilizing this formula.

If AT>1800 then no change from current matching.


… now. I’m not 100% on how exactly this would all play out. Totally honest there. But if you really try to think through: “how would this work?” Then you realize why it is the way it is. BUT that isn’t to say that I disagree with you or that exploring a better way to do this isn’t worthwhile.

  1. I’m not sure about food and iron being taken out or reduced. Why do you want that taken out? Can you summarize the other post you’re referencing?
5 Likes

WOW.

HIS post is useless and pointless. You can cram that up your butt, sir.

He started a discussion. He raised some issues that are important enough to him to start this thread.

And while his post CLEARLY isn’t an issue to you, doesn’t mean it doesn’t impact some portion of the player base.

So thank you for gracing this thread with your suggestion that OP doesnt speak well, that he’s selfish, and that his idea is stupid.

That’s an A-plus contribution there - AND I am 100% certain that your fellow trolls will grant you Hearts for your efforts and flag this post since by calling you out on being a jerk, I am now the jerk.

It’s much much better to let the “veterans” of this game make a toxic atmosphere for newer players trying to make a better environment for other new F2P players.

1 Like

Cup dropping is a product of poorly implement raid tiers / rewards.

Those players NEED incentivized by game design to achieve higher trophy counts.

Without it, there is NO system that works. NONE.

The devs should understand this and be working at a fix. I am assuming that they are.

3 Likes

I appreciate the constructive feedback in this thread, and as a newer player toward the top of the Silver category, I am matched frequently with opponents who are 400-500 team power stronger than I am, but they have less cups. The way things are now is if I win that raid, I could actually win fewer cups and if I lose which is most likely, I lose many more cups. There should be a way to better match opponents based on strength of team power and cups. And as players reach higher levels, and cups matter more the weight percentage given to cups goes up. And i I win against a stronger opponent, I should get more than I lose. By the same token, if I select a weaker opponent giving me greater chance of victory, I should get less than if I lose.

3 Likes

Total cups are a better indicator of skill plus team power. Keep using cup totals, it’s much more fair.

3 Likes

Using team power isn’t a great way to make a match.

  1. The power is like the cake, a lie. In particular, when dealing with 5* heroes before their final ascension, they have a listed higher power at 3/70 than a 4* hero at 4/70, but are usually not as effective. When raiding I actually look for teams using 5* 3/70 heroes in preference to a full set of 4* 4/70 because they’re easier to beat.
  2. Heroes are random in how they’re obtained, and just throwing together a bunch of heroes based on points doesn’t mean that that team is actually effective. A good team is selected to complement each others strengths, and doesn’t need to be as powerful by the book to be more effective.
4 Likes

OP proposes a terrible idea, which has been very, very extensively discussed in the forum many times previously.

In short, cups constitute an Elo-type ranking system designed to match players with similar raiding skills. It’s a flawed system - the practice of cup-dropping messes up the matches a bit, but this is at least partially mitigated by the vast advantages attackers have in raids.

Team power would be a horrifically flawed metric to use for raid matchmaking that would penalise skilled players and immediately render leaderboard ranks meaningless.

4 Likes

I support this idea but for some reason your like button is not under your post. Even if some say that the cup system is good I cannot fully agree. Here is an example I recognized so many times during raid (which I do mainly for filling my chest).
I won against an opponent with 200 more team power which was hard enough for me. As it was my last of 6 won fights in a row I had a lot of cups at this time and won only 13 cups. From my point of view this is first mis-match. I had a hard fight against a stronger enemy but get only small reward. Now the revenge comes: easy to win against me with 200 less team power but steals me 45 cups. Don’t think that this system is fair…

2 Likes
  1. If you support the OP then you can vote for the idea by using the ‘Vote’ button at the top left of the thread.

  2. The situation you describe was totally fair. You are good at raids so your cup total increased beyond its equilibrium level. You beat a strong player with fewer cups than you, so you won only a few cups. When they took their revenge they won many cups, lowering your cup total to nearer its equilibrium level. That’s as fair as it is possible to be.

1 Like

@brobb. What is fair about it? I have had a hard fight and won only with luck with the board probably in tie break and all I get is 15 cups? If I would have lost which would be the usual case, I would have lost 45 tropies!
So I got punished for having luck?
I just want to point out that the opponent is much, much stonger than me and the chance to kick my butt is really high and for that he is getting a bigger reward as me?

I usual chose opponents weaker than me and get only little cups. If such opponent wins the revenge against me and harvest more tropies it is ok. No discussion.
But a strong opponent is just picking cherries and is rewarded for that?

1 Like
  1. that’s the way elo works. You’ll lose trophies. “So what?”

Trophies are NOT a resource for you to use. They’re worthless really. Especially since tier rewards suck so hard.

Essentially, you’re in a situation where you want to lose trophies, so you’ll have more fair matchups.

Does that suck? I think in some ways, yes. (Keeping in mind that the Low trophy areas are so saturated with higher power players because they can hide there because we are matching on strictly trophy count. Aaaaand because they have zero incentive to gain trophies.)

  1. I proposed a solution above. It’s messy. There are problems trying to make a solution. I encourage you to try because it isn’t easy. And maybe you’ll see why there’s push back on this.

If we can come up with a solution maybe some of the people here who like to dismiss things out of hand will pay attention. (Maybe not too. Probably not. )

It’s fair because you are fighting someone weaker than you.

Incorrect. If you have more trophies, then you are the stronger player, by definition (because that is what trophies measure). You have no way of telling the strength of your opponent’s heroes - all you can ever see is the strength of the defensive team they choose to post at a particular time. Moreover, if you are judging the strength of that particular team by the ‘team power’ metric, then you are being silly. ‘Team power’ is a terrible measure of actual strength.

Choose to fight opponents who are stronger than you - those who have more cups. That is what your opponent did, and that is why they were richly rewarded when they defeated you. Very fairly, I might add.

1 Like

You deserve credit for trying to work out how to improve raid matching. Kudos to you. But I think your proposal would generate poor results.

Matching based on ‘team power’ is an awful idea in all circumstances for two reasons:

  1. Team power is a truly awful measure of actual team strength (though not as bad as it originally was).

  2. The process stymies the natural equilibrium-finding mechanism of an Elo-type system.

Yes, the flaws could be mitigated by incorporating trophies to some extent, but why bother building on a rotten foundation? In isolation, trophies ought to work perfectly well.

The core problem, which you have correctly identified, is that there is a significant incentive for players to drop cups to farm food and iron and to fill their raid wanted chests. Remove these incentives and the problem disappears.

We already see SG reducing the farming incentive, by introducing tiered raid wanted chests. This has improved things a little but does not go far enough. I would support the next step being to reduce the amount of food and iron that can be stolen in a raid by a factor of ten. This would immediately remove the farming incentive. (And make some cup-droppers grumpy.)

I’m not sure how to remove the raid wanted chest incentive - perhaps by introducing a penalty for raids lost on defence? Maybe a player should need to win an extra raid on attack for every raid they lose on defence, to fill the chest. This seems a pretty blunt instrument, though: I’m sure there are better solutions.

1 Like

This seems to punish players for gaining trophies as well? As the more you gain the more likely you are to have higher level players get you while they’re matching.

While I don’t think that a composite matching system is worse than what currently exists (esp at lower ranks where I changed the matching), I do acknowledge that it isn’t perfect. And given the time to change to my proposed idea, I can totes get behind that not happening.

KISS - fix the rewards at higher levels. And you know I’m totally in favor of keeping the Stealing thing from watchbtower. To mitigate that, you should have a base amount of food and iron Gained from a successful attack in gold and above. (15k each gold, 30k platinum?). That plus increased rewards in those tiers should make that ham stealing a non issue as far as causing players to trophy drop.

And adds incentive for players to stay in higher tiers.

1 Like

I think your proposed minimum loot rewards for each raid would go some way to getting rid of cup dropping for farming purposes. (I still prefer the idea of virtually eliminating the ability to steal loot from defeated opponents, but that may be because I am a sadist.) There would need to be a significant differential between the tiers, and it would only address the farming issue.

Cup dropping would persist, however, with players dropping back towards tier thresholds in order to fill their raid chest more easily.

Would penalising raid losses punish players who gain trophies? Perhaps. The more I think about it the more I conclude it is a stupid idea: it might just disincentivise being active.

So I don’t know how to discourage cup-dropping to fill the raid chest. The most obvious way would be for the chest to be filled at a speed proportional to the trophies of the opponents you defeat, so that the higher the cups of the players you kill, the faster the chest fills. Alternatively, chest rewards could be made proportional to the cups of the players you killed to fill it.

Either way, though, this would be a very major change that would require re-engineering raid chests and raid tiers. That seems very messy.

This doesn’t stop players from dropping a few hundred cups then matching up with easier opponents still :frowning: it maybe does make it a little more challenging, so maybe as part of a solution it would be beneficial.

It isn’t an easy fix, at any rate :stuck_out_tongue: we are in the agreements.

Maybe… once players achieve a given tier, they are unable to drop below the threshold of that tier. (So once you’re silver, you can never go below 600 cups.)

Would that work?

1 Like

Fill the Wanted Hero mission chests with 1 pt per 10 HP of a defeated hero rounding up.

Requires 2k points to cash in.

Example
Defeating a hero with 500 HP earns 50 points.
Defeating 40 heroes with 500 HP earns 2k points.

3 Likes

Cookie Settings