Logic behind Guin's Special and Recent Change in Perfect Riposte


#1

Hello devs and everyone,

The recent change in Perfect Riposte has kinda made me think about the logic behind Guinevere’s special (as well as Chao and Li Xiu).

1/ It’s logical that a dead hero can’t counter attack because he’s already dead, so basically as soon as his HP has gone beyond its minimum (0), the counterattack if happens would be deemed a bug. I understand the point.

2/ The logic above could be applied to Guin’s special.

  • Let’s say I need to hit 7 tiles to charge my Gravemaker or his max mana capacity is 7 tiles. Assuming I attack a team with a Guin tank and I got lucky at the start forming a red diamond; then I charge the diamond that triggers other 10 red tiles.

  • Unfortunately most of them hits Guin and her mana is full afterwards. When she goes off, she reduces 20% of my GM’s mana and prevent him from going off. My problem is that my GM’s mana cannot be stored beyond the max 7 tiles even though I had charged 15 red tiles until Guin’s mana is full.

  • If the Riposte logic were applied, Guin could reduce only 20% of the total mana that my GM had accumulated until then, which is 20% of mana equivalent to 15 red tiles, and not 20% of the mana confined in that max 7 tiles.

3/ If Guin could be programmed like this, when she goes off, there would be still a chance for one of her enemies to fire their special. Her card wouldn’t need to be nerfed and she would no longer be deemed overpower. Of course she would still be pretty powerful, but this seems kinda fairer.


#2

The change to Riposte is being rolled back in version 15.1
I prefer the logic that at the time of receiving the fatal blow, and if Riposte is active at that time, then a “counterattack” would happen
Or reflected damage if you prefer that wording :slightly_smiling_face:


#3

That makes no sense. You can’t fill something more than 100%.

If i have a gallon bucket and dump 2 gallons of water on it, then take 20% of what’s in the bucket, would the bucket be full or 80% full? it would be 80% full, the bucket cant magically hold more than a gallon.


#4

Yes, it would be 80% full if there is one bucket.

The thing with your metaphor is the water would overflow right away, but heroes with overflowed mana wouldn’t be able to go off right away but gotta wait for Guin’s turn.

That’s why I try to relate it to the Perfect Riposte controversy.


#5

So what, you want rollover Mana? Not gonna happen.


#6

Well, one strategy in that case is doing your diamond, fill guinevre’s bar with useless tiles, let her go off and then blow the diamond, which will fill your heroes but won’t be enough (most of the times at least) to fill guin from ground


#7

I’m not sure. I know this may open a can of worm, but when you fight AI and their heroes’ mana is full, they strike right away. You can’t do that with your heroes, which makes Guin as powerful as she is now. For me, that doesn’t make sense.

But as I said, it’s just a thought when I consider the Perfect Riposte argument.


#8

I wasn’t asking about how to fight Guin. I’m trying to discuss about how her special works. :smiley:


#9

And I think that’s the problem. I see many posts here, often in the bug section, that ask for correcting something that already works fine, just because players want to fill their gap in gaming strategy with corrections to the game rules.
If strong heroes like Guinevre were all nerfed there would be no point in trying to get them, it wouldn’t make any sense trying to get any hero at all if the whole game was balanced in such a way that with any team you can beat any other. This is not chess, the gradual improvement of one’s roster must make a difference


#10

I don’t suggest nerfing Guin as well. She’s powerful the way she is, but the way the system works makes her this way.

I kinda want my heroes to go off right after their mana is full rather than having to wait for Guin to draw 20%. And if you notice, that’s the case when you fight AI right?


#11

No that’s not the case, if you fill any enemy hero, and within the same cascade you kill him he won’t use his spell. He only does if he gets to play his turn


#12

There’s a logic to when enemies hit - they don’t actually hit as soon their mana is full, depending on the circumstances. But that’s not what we’re discussing here, just saying there’s actually a logic behind it…


#13

You’re right. I didn’t word it right.

Not as soon as the mana is full but as soon as the mana is overflowed.


#14

Not even that - when it’s their turn, i.e. (they don’t fire when full) when they get their automatic end-of-turn mana addition, or when (getting full) under influence of a mana boosting effect. I’m not talking about when they are hit by tiles now.

You were talking about when they get filled by tile hits, I just wanted to mention this other scenario, as there’s actually a logic behind when everybody hit. It’s a turn based game, and there’s a logic to the rules. You might feel that some of the rules and/or logic doesn’t really make sense, and certain aspects could and should be discussed and questioned.

I think most would agree Gwen is a step ‘too far’ when it comes to the general balance, but if you want to nerf her, you need to do it (or will have most chance doing it) within the bounds of the existing rules and mechanics. Your mana filling/overflowing suggestion and logic is not compatible with the logic of the mechanics. Or the real world. ;D

Edit: clarification in paranthesis in first paragraph.


#15

The riposte issue is an interesting one. (Oh ffs, Ornery, stop beating the corpse…) In regards to the logic of it, you are kind of right. Based on the implications of the special skill, it could be argued that a riposte heroe shouldn’t be able to riposte if killed.

This might totally not make sense, but i think the mechanics is sound - and actually intended - but not thought through in relation to the description. And as I pointed out in another thread - a riposte in melee situations typically refer to a counter-attack efter a parry, not after getting hit (as is the mechanics in game), so it’s a bad description anyway. ;D


#16

This is a solution looking for a problem (that doesn’t exist)


#17

IT would make more sense to remove 20% of what you have. If you have 100% mana, it goes to 80% but if you have 50% mana, it goes to 40%… I dont actually know if it works like that, but it would be better


#18

So to, uhm… fix Guinevere we should nerf ok heroes into trash tier?
(Azar, Chao, Gan Ju, Leonidas, Li Xiu)

And maybe buff Alberich’s mana generation to empower better slow heroes? :roll_eyes:


#19

I’m not seeing why the change to Riposte triggered this line of thinking, but in any case,

This idea muddles two different mechanics. Heroes that drain mana, like Guinevere, Li Xiu and Chao, take mana from a hero’ mana bucket. That bucket has no extra capacity—it ranges between 0% and 100%. Dropping 9 tiles to charge Jackal cannot build a buffer against a mana steal, nor do I think that should change. This treatment of mana as a capped quantity is the norm in RPGs.

There are other specials that slow mana gain. If Jackal is afflicted by, say, Alasie’s 24% mana slow, then getting 9 tiles will successfully charge Jackal.


#20

this was just a clever way of positing some crazy theory to achieve the OPs actual goal of nerfing a hero he feels is overpowered by trying to position it as “this is how it should work because of some other non related thing.”.

There’s no logic behind it.