Lack of challenging content for developed players

Hello all,

I am starting a new thread for this and not following in the Telly threads, as the nerf saga and a witful comment from @sophos made me realize why I was truly disheartened by the nerf.

A player background: I am a member of a top100-150 alliance, with a quite strong and wide roster. I was getting fairly bored with the game for some time, even standard raiding was becoming a mindless routine with a 95% win rate in the months before Telly. I considered a bit of disrespect when antinerf was called generally selfish, while for me & my teammates and many top players/alliances the reasons were different. For me the main reason against was not that I wanted to wake up to a bit higher cups and have a good feeling about it, but we loved the new challenge Telly provided. It pulled us out of the routine daily raid wins and 5-6 war one shots.

I admit that the balance change was successful in reaching the goal of SG and the others calling for it: In defense Telly still remained relevant and imho still the strongest tank, but rather on par now with the other few top ones and more easily recoverable when she fires. On offense I am still happy to use Telly as a support/healer and Vela as a support attacker, they are still very strong in their roles. So after a week I made my peace with the balance and where my emblems are now. But still I feel, the challenge is gone, though yes I understand the reason why this was needed.

Fast forward to Tavern of Legends event which now just made my lack of challenge feelings much stronger: SG has created a new format of event, this part I praise as a good idea. But the very slow mana generation of bosses combined with a low number of levels made the whole thing into a joke for me.

Jumping also a bit back when I completed path of valor (or lvl48 quite some time ago), again there was no real challenge completing it and no feel of any urgency to do all tasks for an active player. This I also considered a huge step back from PoV1.

In summary: I know the game and its content must be accessible to the widest possible player base with sufficient rewards for their effort, BUT at the same time imho the game content should also cater for the strong and developed players with difficult and challenging tasks. We would like to sometime use our brains and our skills tested. I recently feel that with every new content or difficulty lowering changes we are doing a step back somewhere to candy crush land.

  • Path of Valor: if SG wants the completion to be accessible with lower demands, fine. Why not make an additional tier with one daily task or a set number of tasks as a kind of hardcore level, many such ideas were already proposed so we have more interesting tasks as the existing ones: e.g. win raids with only healers or only 3 att heroes. The end reward does not need to be high, even one 4* ascend item is fine, even with no daily rewards for this tier. Do it for the challenge and fun of it.

  • Tavern of Legends: The mana speed of bosses must be improved. And we could easily have 15 levels at least or more. This changes nothing for the ones who had a roster for only e.g. 8 stages now, but the ones with wider rosters could play to the end and really plan who to use.

  • General raiding: Well this is the most complicated one, maybe SG could finally think to modernize the outdated Cups system. I have seen some interesting arena ideas on the forum far in the past. EDIT: As the raid attack problematic more precisely described by Sophos in post #7, I also wonder if perhaps there already exist some ideas on improving the raid attack mechanism itself.

With this post I aim to see if I am alone with these feelings or if there are many other players that look for higher difficulty/challenging content in the game and discuss where you think the game could be improved to address our need.

16 Likes

Maybe they should provide some kind of slider (nerfs heroes, increases loot) to adjust the level of challenge.

:wink:

2 Likes

I agree that there needs to be some added challenge for more tenured/experienced players.

I supported the Telly nerf (I have her… not sour grapes) because I saw how rage inducing she could be. Even post “nerf” a person in diamond arena is hard pressed to find a different tank to fight.

I was really excited by ToL because of the challenge of only being able to use a hero once. Unfortunately it was very easy with my roster and I didn’t get the challenge that I had hoped for. Unlike many who post about difficulty levels, I’d actually like to see something that I need to stretch to achieve. Adding another 5 levels would be great.

I also agree on POV. Achieving lvl 48 wasn’t difficult. I’m fine with it being achievable for most, but I’d also like to see something where that rewards those that exceed the needed points. Or a ‘hardcore’ option like you described. It wouldn’t take away from the existing rewards, but would give those of us that really want more challenge something to keep us engaged.

7 Likes

I’m taking it you spend cash on this. Maybe levelling your new hero the next day? all becomes not fun easy and boring.
Thats down to you have fun at the top :+1:

1 Like

Yes I am, reasonably, small packages no big spender. But I do not think my post has anything to do with spending. With spending you more or less only achieve a wider list of heroes at your disposal. Even an f2p player playing for e.g. 2+ years with lots of maxed heroes (even if they are mostly classic) may experience the same, especially with ToL and PoV.

5 Likes

While I get what you’re saying and agree, there also steps you can take to increase the challenge. The bigger issue is being willing to lose if it doesn’t work.

For example, on Tavern I only allowed myself 3’s until stage 6. I also decide to try and beat the rest of the levels without going above 4K TP.

Raiding I try all sorts of weird crap all the time. Some of it works, some of it doesn’t. By doesn’t I mean fails at a level 10 times worse than normal failure :upside_down_face:

Depending on your alliance I know you can’t get too weird with titan and war swings as it hurts your overall alliance score, but for solo stuff if the structure isn’t hard enough, make it harder yourself. Just because you have top tier maxed heroes doesn’t mean you always have to use them.

“Let’s get weird!” - the beginning of the worst weekend ever…

3 Likes

That is kind of beside the original point though.

For raids, the observation was once you get to the top, and your best-in-spec 4700 team goes up against a best-in-spec 4700 team, you are very likely to win. That is sort of not what you would expect from a progressive pvp game. What you’d expect is that someone at your level has a 50/50 chance of winning.

This seems to start once you have a deeper bench of 4*s. Somewhere around there, there is a huge inflection point where you start routinely beating teams 200-300 points stronger than you, and it keeps getting worse.

This came up in a Telluria nerf thread, because earlier that day, an alliance member said something like “wow, Telluria teams are actually as strong as their team power”. The joke being that normally a 4200 war team can be downed by a well chosen 3900 team, but to beat a 4200 Telluria team, you actually needed a 4200 offensive team.

Later, @Jronny was expressing dismay that Telluria would be nerfed, not on the premise that she was on the same level as other tanks, but rather having a tank that was hard to kill was a refreshing change.

That is not a great reason to keep an OP character in the game. But it begged the question, why is the game scaling the way it is? Why isn’t a 4700 team just naturally challenging to a 4700 player? Its not like you have 5200 teams to fight. So why is it just accepted that you’ll win 80% of the time on even footing at a certain point, or whatever the number is?

(As for the rest, that is easy. Who does it hurt to have even more challenging event levels on top of what is already there? Everything else should stay, just keep adding more to keep up with power creep. Everyone deserves fun content and rewards, low and high end)

3 Likes

I do agree maybe they should add other quests for higher players, but then it’s a case of which team can I auto farm it with out doing anything maybe you like to play the rounds dunno.

2 Likes

Thank you, much better said than I could consolidate my thoughts. I should appoint you as my speaker :slight_smile:

1 Like

Are you serious?telluria is still such OP hero and about Tavern do you think anything about weak players

A Progressive death grind would be fun —

Basically perm. mission where you know going in Your going to get ground into a fine paste

Question is if you get stomped on 5, 10 or 50… let’s you train, etc

Clearly the only acceptable option is cloning 8-7 —

Are you serious?telluria is still such OP hero

This thread has nothing to do with Telluria, its about making offensive play more challenging at higher levels

and about Tavern do you think anything about weak players

How does having more levels that are harder in addition to what you already have take anything away from lower tier players?

6 Likes

I agree Tavern was a huge let down. I’d also be interested in what raid revisions you speak of. And as others suggested, an endless level might be good, although balancing it might be difficult… how much WE or other resources does it cost, What rewards do you get, etc?

In general high level content is a hopeless task, because so few see it, it takes months to develop, and players finish it in a day. Which is why I think mostly tweaks to existing are the way to go.

1 Like

This is a really well written post.

I feel the same way, at least partially. It’s true, even for an intermediate player, there isn’t even a single event that we can aspire to achieve and perhaps fall short. Except for war.

Even for war, we need something to change it up, something to add variety, as well as something to make it more challenging for these top level players.

It would be nice for POV, that some of the quest lines didn’t have a limit, there would just be diminishing returns. And for POV, if there were additional rewards at the top, also diminishing. I’m sure, however small they were, that some people would complain though, so maybe changing POV isn’t worth it, since it’s a revenue stream for SG, it’s not meant to challenge you @Jronny.

Tavern of Legends could certainly be a lot harder, you could have more levels, and you could have diminishing returns on the rewards.

The “dark side” of adding more challenge is that when players ask for “more challenge”, what they are really asking for is “more rewards”. I’ve been playing games forever and whenever developers give players extra challenge, they aren’t really in it for the extra challenge unless it also comes with significant rewards. A challenge without rewards is just ignored. And the problem here is that the top players, who already have a significant advantage due to spending, don’t need more rewards.

But I’d be all for more challenge for those players who want it, as long as it came with minimal extra rewards. Even better, I want to see war enhanced so that it adds more variety AND more challenge.

5 Likes

I like the idea of more challenging content also.

In the realm of quests why not open up a daily ‘extreme quest’ for example to players once they reach level 40 to break up the boring repetitive ones we do now, it doesn’t even need good rewards just a fun challenge.

I would be keen for an individual daily titan, something along the lines of the final S2 quest boss Ursena fight. Many ways this could be developed but the top titan tier would be very difficult. Even just for titan parts this could be a fun addition.

Raiding is a tougher one, it would need a full over haul as in a game where tiles are king and the term team power is a wrong representation of actual game play, we would need a different system to make PvP more challenging/interesting

Anyway, yes to harder content that isn’t behind a paywall. Content should be an investment not a cash grab.

4 Likes

I can answer that question. It doesn’t really add to your fun if your defense wins a bunch of times while you sleep. It does detract from the fun of most players if they lose when they raid more than they win. I think the game design where the attackers win the majority of the time is the right philosophy. You should see how frustrated players in platinum and gold can get even when the odds are in the attackers favor.

Now does it have to be that way for war? Nope, it doesn’t, it could scale much differently. The defenses attack and defense could be increased further. I’m just wondering how they could do it so that it’s optional, because not everyone wants what you’re asking for. Maybe in the top 1% or 5% of war?

And maybe they could tweak the defense formula for diamond raiding. But I wouldn’t change raiding in platinum or below. If they make raiding in diamond more challenging, they had better increase the rewards. Already, it’s more rewarding to cup drop and fill your raid chest faster than it is to raid in diamond.

1 Like

I like the idea of an extreme quest. Maybe that quest could even scale based on your hero/troop roster! That way, it would be the same relative challenge whether you’re a new player or someone who has been playing for 3 years.

2 Likes

Excellent post. As a fairly new player (little over a year). I am seeing a lot of points you bring up as I improve. This game is a victim of what happens often everywhere…everyone should get a trophy. I remember early on being bummed about not being able to finish the second level of the emblems quest, but I save up for more mana pots and axes. I worked harder to improve my depth and finish even some of the seemingly impossible challenge events.

There’s something good about being older, I appreciate earning things. I didn’t expect every single challenge in the game to be handed to me.

Challenge us SGG. The newbies and the veterans. The level 20 players learning the game and the level 80 masters wanting something to keep their interest. We love the new content, but the final level shouldn’t always be so easy you just need to log in to claim your spoils.

Rock on.

4 Likes

ToL seems to be a thing that can easily be improved into a real challenge by just adding 2 more tiers to complete. Even players with very big rosters will have to plan wisely to beat 2 more maybe even stronger tiers of that hero eating game mode.

1 Like

I’m not a big player but I agree. Bigger players need also challenges. I am sure I wouldn’t complete everything if there was. But is this really a problem? I say no. Not long ago I wasn’t able to finish all Trials. It’s only giving me aims!

2 Likes

Cookie Settings