I need an anti-Guin strategy

Since i don´t reroll anymore i have learned to not fear a healer tanks spezial, let her fire, as long as you can control when. :upside_down_face:

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My Guin attack team is 2 GMs, Panther, Hel and Sartana. (I will soon be replacing Sart with Sesh though. Just need one more Tabard.)

Since that’s not useful for most people (since most people lack Panther, Hel, and GM, let alone 2 GMs)…

For you, I’d say MN, 2x Sesh, Prot, Tibs. I’d also say to make getting a mana troop to level 23 a priority, although there’s not much you can do to that end except grind.

I don’t think brining a purple healer is too useful against Guin, especially if you’re already bringing MN (or any other non-purple healer, really). If you get the purple tiles early, you won’t need healing much. If you don’t, that purple healer will likely be dead before it can fire anyway. (And if it’s not dead by then, it’s probably because your non-purple healer already healed!)

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:wink:

MN-Proto-Proto/Rigard(+1) and double Seshat is very good anty-guin team IMO

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This is what I run. 3 tiles kill her up to +8. I’d double up Sesh for your crew.

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I used this often against Guin, 3 -4 vertical tiles and she pops, afterwards with more lucky ghost tiles the average mana crews on the right charge the same time, from there on divide and conquer!

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Here an example of what I said about Hansel against Guin

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Stack purple and laugh your fool head off when RNGesus blesses you.

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Yeah that works great when you get a green diamond but if your board is constantly red, blue or yellow good luck. Lol nice board

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I have Hansel, he is quick mana, you don’t need a green diamond tu use his special before Guin uses her, you only need to charge it first. That is no a secret, the game is easier when you charge your special first… but… a diamond for itself means nothing if you are not playing with de correct heroes.

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Guin does three things that you need to figure out how to cope with:

  1. Degrades tile play with an elemental defense
  2. Degrades special play with a mana cut
  3. Erases past and near future tile damage with a HOT

I’m not sure I see how that team works together to counter Guin. It seems like it doesn’t really cohere.

Tibs and Seshat pair oddly in 3-2. If you have 10+ tiles to get them both hot, Guin is probably already dead. And then you can drop Tibs->Seshat for a kill shot on someone else. But that’s really just making you win harder on an already very good fight.

Tibs and Seshat don’t have a natural ordering versus Guin if she fires. You can get Seshat hot in short order and strip the buffs that Guin dropped. But then you want to follow up with something burly or something controlling to buy time. Tiburtus is the setup for a hard shot, not the hard shot itself. Proteus is control, which is good, but he can’t follow up Tibs’ hit either.

So that engagement is sort of like a Rube Goldberg device:

A) Seshat dispels Guin and Co. and does a bit of damage.
B) Tiburtus debuffs the defenses of 3 defenders, which sets up a tile attack or an eventual second shot by Seshat.
C) Proteus locks a group and does a bit of damage
D) You try to find some Purple tiles fast, in order to make use of the def down.

Buddy is very duplicative of Tibs. He is a more powerful but shorter duration debuffer who ALSO can’t hit worth a darn. Mitsuko is a delaying tactic who does a bit of damage too. She also is the setup, not the punchline. She can crush a blue sniper. But her main role is to strip mana while edging the enemy closer to a death caused by someone or something else.

MoNo rides in late to save the day. But it’s not clear who you would be desperately hoping MoNo rezzes if she fires. No one is intrinsically a game-changer, although Seshat comes closest. And even at max Cleric, MoNo is more likely than not to absorb a devastating mana cut. She too is someone who boosts the rest of the offense rather than taking it to the defense. 12 neutral tiles is an eternity against Guin, and becomes 14 or 15 tiles if she cuts MoNo at partial fill (mana troop depending). Slow is tough against Guin.

Anti-Gun falls into a few general themes:

  1. Tile her down before she can fire

This is a mono strategy, and it is generally quite effective, since Guin with moderate emblems is a 3 tile kill for a decent mono stack.

If she does fire, you will need some tools to peel back the defenses. But learning to mono Guin is a very reasonable play. Here, control and def downs are reasonable, because even single tiles can be very unpleasant.

I’d sub in Sabina for MoNo (or Rigard if the enemy is debuff-heavy), and Proteus #2 or Merlin for Buddy/Mitsi. Here, the heavy mana control is very powerful, because tiles hit so hard.

When I mono Guin, I generally go Kage/Hel/Proteus+18/Merlin/Sabina+18 or Rigard+18. There’s little direct damage, but I can hold off the defense forever while hunting tiles.

  1. Hybrid tile play and control

Here, 3-2 or 3-1-1 is the order of the day. You have enough firepower to take Guin in 6 or 7 tiles, but you also have ways to control her.

The “2” in the 3-2 is prolongation and support. If you can get them hot, they should be able to extend the fight effectively.

Here, I’d go Sabina or Rigard/Proteus+17/Seshat, and then two Average or faster heroes in a helpful color. BT and Mitsi would be a good example of a pair with good synergy with the plan:

  • BT’s heal keeps the team alive
  • BT’s buff significantly boosts tile damage while it’s up
  • Mitsi’s special buys extra time with a mana cut
  • Both Mitsi and BT can absorb a lot of damage before dying
  1. Special-forward

Here, you want as many fast or faster hitter heroes as you can bring in your 3 color. Wherever the tiles are, you want to be able to convert 8 into rapid mayhem. GP/Kage/Seshat would be a great trio. Or GP/Seshat/Sartana. They make holes.

GM and Zeline would be great for off colors here.

This strategy isn’t really consistent with your roster unless you’re very lucky coming up soon.

  1. Specialist strategies focused of the specifics of your roster

If there is a cohesive way that your roster can answer the questions Guin poses, that is perfectly fine.

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Thank you, everyone, for your responses. I wanted to mull things over for a bit and am still formulating a plan. It feels like there were a few major common elements in most of the responses I received:

Increase Tile Damage

To that end, I could add another Seshat (though it would take a while to max her), another Proteus, Ameonna / Merlin / Sabina. I failed to draw Panther today, and have no imminent plans for Atlantis pulls, so Kage is also off the table (as is Hel). I will experiment by taking a baby step with this, pulling Tiburtus and possibly my other non-purple who is not Mother North for Proteus and Sabina / Ameonna.

'Cause It’s All About Control

I think Hansel / Gretel are great ideas, but I have neither, nor a path to pull them (same for Poseidon). So the tools here would be Proteus x2, Merlin, and Mitsuko, meaning I’m already likely to do the best my roster can on this front if I increase tile damage.

Mono

My options are Seshat, another Seshat (eventually), Protei, Sabina, Ameonna, Rigard, Merlin, and Cyprian. I haven’t used those last four in a raid yet this month (except war), and Sabina only once.

I agree with @gregschen - a purple healer in a 3/2 is mostly unnecessary since I’ll either not need them or they will die before firing (though they may have value after a resurrection). If I go Sabina it’ll mostly be for tile damage. But I’ll consider experimenting with mono, in which case I will bring 1/2 purple healers (I do still regard pulling Mother North as heretical).

Plan

I couldn’t figure out where to put this, but @Garanwyn, I agree with you; my current team isn’t anti-Guin. Generally, I construct my raid teams in a way that I think maximizes my chances of winning, NOT to max the chances of getting a tank kill. I understand what you’re saying about Tiburtus and Mitsuko, but for me both of them are about the post-Guin portion of the fight. The defense down is obviously useful and Mitsuko is responsible for e.g., a corner Isarnia.

However, I recognize that there are at least two possible problems with my thought process:

  1. Guinevere may be a special case, where maximizing a tank kill and maximizing the chances of victory are essentially the same thing. I don’t feel that way about most tanks (with Kunchen perhaps being the next closest), but I kind of do with her.
  2. I may be flat out wrong in what maximizes my chances of achieving xyz objective. In fact, I find it likely that I AM wrong, which is basically what prompted me to make this thread.

For example, I have been pulling Buddy for Evelyn, and have found that a more effective configuration. I initially felt Buddy’s minions would help wtihstand attacks and help me in an attritive battle, but since Guin isn’t about direct damage, a portion of his special is wasted. Evelyn clears the buffs, and faster. I was wrong about this one. Faster dispel and useful element link > slower minions and significant ailments.

I think I’ll change my purple 3tack to emphasize tiles and possibly move towards mono. I’d like to hold off a second Seshat if I can, in order to see if I draw Victor in the Halloween event.

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Maximizing the team for the after-Guin battle seems like putting the cart before the horse, as the old saying goes. If the team can’t crack Guin, there IS NO after-Guin battle.

Not that a full mono anti-Guin blitz is a much better option. I’ve many a time where Guin explodes only for the team to get picked off by Kages, Magnis, and their ilk when I run into the inevitable purple drought where I’m struggling to work the board to have a multiple special charge and fire, so idk.

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Your team is heavily dependent on tile play. You have one fast snipe, and it’s not top 5 for power of hit. And it hits extra soft if it’s being used as a dispel to drill through Guin’s buff, since the dispel comes after the damage is mitigated by elemental defense.

Guin consumes 43% of the available tile lanes. And Guin’s elemental defense and HOT cover the central 72% of the available tile lanes. If you can’t deal with Guin, there likely won’t be a rest of the fight.

Figure out what options you have that get Guin. And then, from among those options, figure out how to win the rest of the fight.

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This thread has been extremely edifying for me. I got some things out of it that I did not expect; things that I think will help me in raids not just against Guinevere.

Here are my three best snipers: Seshat, Caedmon +18, Triton. I am aware this is the biggest weakness in my roster, it’s just that I can’t really unilaterally ‘solve’ it. Seshat was a huge huge huge get for me. Which is why I prepped for her 2-3 months in advance.

So, it seems to me that my only option is to double down on tile damage, Guin elemental defense or no. It would take me some time, but I can see now how a double Seshat attack would really help me too: good tiles, but also a move towards non-tile kills, as the first special removes elemental defense, the second hopefully kills.

I need another week or two to finish out my current purple project, then I’ll decide if Seshat #2 is a go. I’ll use that time to experiment with a stronger tile 3tack (Seshat, Proteus, and Proteus/Ameonna/Sabina/Merlin), and possibly even a 4/1 configuration.

Again, a huge thank you to everyone who contributed ideas and thoughts.

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Double Seshat is quite powerful here, since the first dispels and the second drills through a target. But it’s a lot of eggs in one basket. If you’re facing lots of yellow tanks in war, then it is likely a really good investment.

Your core question is: “What other purple might I draw that I would wish to max more than Seshat?”

GP is a no-go. Kage is out you said. The next purple to hit Atlantis would be TA again. Seshat is a better ascend than any of your options under TC20 (except maybe Sartana, depending on your perspective on a couple of issues). And the next purple HOTM is December, and we know nothing about it yet. I’m not in love with the purples in the Event refreshes either.

That all says “go for it on Seshat” to me.

If you’re doubling down on tiles, think seriously about mono. It is very different that the 3-2 you’re used to, and you’ll tend to freak out when you’re short of tiles at first. That generally goes away with time and practice.

But popping Guin in 3 tiles is HUGE. Having that middle lane opens all kinds of options. And being skillful at mono is a good arrow to have in your quiver.

For myself:

  • I always mono Guin
  • I always 3-2 Kun
  • Most other tanks, I pick a strategy based on the specifics of the team behind them and their emblem level

It’s all about controlling the risk/reward ratio for the specific fight.

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Excellent and clear.

Incidentally, I have Thoth. :roll_eyes:

Would Victor change any of that? I am accumulating my EHT’s for the Halloween event / Kingston. I could level Proteus #3 while saving my Tabards (9, so second Seshat could be in play soon-ish anyway) for Victor.

I may be able to manage Guinevere in the meantime with my roster as is; I am 4-1 against her in the month, so I am clearly very good at finding other raid opportunities. :stuck_out_tongue:

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The problem is not that you have TA; it’s that you don’t also have Panther :upside_down_face:

Hmm.

Victor vs Guin

  • Guin’s HOT restores 153 HP/turn for 4 turns
  • Victor’s 61% heal steal takes 93 of that for 3 turns
  • Victor’s DOT does 45 per turn for 5 turns (+1 for each 15 points of extra Attack stat from troops or emblems)

So if you drop Victor right before Guin fires, he holds her to 15 points of self healing per turn for the first 3 turns, and 108 for the last, for a total of 153. And Victor himself is healed for 289. His 778 Attack is also good for tile play. And his +30% Defense buff should help you hunt for tiles.

What he isn’t is a sniper. His hit itself will tag Guin for less than 250 damage even before her buff is up.

Victor’s role

Victor is a support and tile play character, which intrinsically makes him more niche. People who want a target to go boom when they hit the button are undoubtedly very disappointed.

He can’t stop a hero from firing, he can’t stop a hero from gaining mana, and he can’t kill in one shot. 475 total damage over 5 turns to a single target is just miniscule, and even with a 61% steal of a big heal, it’s a total HP swing of 800ish over 5 turns. Not big numbers.

Victor is designed to pin a single threat’s health in place despite healing–and limit the overall incoming damage to your team–while you hunt for the tiles you need to kill them and heal yourself. How valuable that is to you is is very much a question of how often you need to do such a pin, and how good you are at tile play.

Can he be a killer?

Some fraction of the time, when Victor gets to chain refresh the DOT, he can cripple or kill a target all by himself. Two hits plus a DOT refresh after 3 turns would do 1100ish damage to a wing over 8 turns. A third hit and refresh would be lights-out.

If you don’t need him in the middle, he probably is fairly effective at crushing a nasty wing like Alby or Azlar.

Path forward

Learning to make the most of Victor sounds like a fun project. But my gut says Seshat will pay off faster and more reliably. That’s 3 months of Guin hits and war hits you’re forgoing otherwise.

Plus, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. 115 pulls is the 50/50 point on getting a Victor. I’d max Seshat, and hunt up those (max of) 3 needed tabards if I got lucky and pulled Victor in October.

Good for you! That’s encouraging.

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Wow. This is not a post on a forum about a mobile match-3 game so much as it is a white paper. Well done.

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Thanks! It was a fun question to think about :slight_smile: I like this game in part because it asks subtle questions with long-range implications.

Plus, I write a fair number of white papers.

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I just mono-stack red if I see purple flanks + Guinevere tank :stuck_out_tongue:

Boldtusk | Wilbur | Red Hood | Marjana | Scarlett (or Mitsuko if there’s blue wings)

Well okay I know not everyone will have Red Hood but tbh this setup doesn’t even work super well, maybe 50% of the time I’d say. Red Hood is not a guaranteed good counter to Guin. At average speed she’s gonna have a hard time firing before her, and if Guin does fire you then have to make sure you can recharge specials back. I am not fortunate enough to have Seshat who’s easily better, or at least even Kage or Victor who are easier to charge.