Agree, but It is because Mok-Arr has a very very very great offense color stack synergy, so he has a useful place there. Neith is jack of all trades.
I agree, but Finley only great if opponent has buff. BK is upgraded taunt with attack buff, strong but not OP.
Kong and Atomos are already vote and also I think Atomos is everywhere not only on that poll.
Here is the list of poll need buff: Heroes in Need of Buff(UPDATED /w Voting).
Margaret?
Neith is worth mats more than mok-arr is in my personal opinion. Niche does not mean useful. Just because a topic exists doesnât mean that the community agrees and most definately not in the same numbers as for HOTMâs. Margeret is still complained about to this dayâŚ
Regardless, in general the average HOTMâs get more votes and more support for buffs than equal or even worse other heroes which is the point I am making. No point discussing semantics. The point is rather clear and quite undeniable so I donât really get why you are picking at straws here and completely ignoring the topic?
Do you think it is logical or desirable that the second most common 5* heroes in the game are the strongest ones? That heroes which are harder to get are worse?
I have posted this opinion in several topics and despite 490 views on this topic as well I have yet to meet anyone capable of refuting the logic I have attempted to explain. Usually people just avoid the idea, most likely because they know deep down that it makes no sense. We have established that HOTMâs need to be desirable either through strength or through niche applications but so far noone has given me a good reason as to why they should be better than heroes that are harder to obtain. Where are all the anti nerfers and pro buffers? They are all usually extremely talkative but this seems to be a dicussion noone wants to touch with a ten foot pole.
I mean obviously if someone voted that Telluria shouldnât be nerfed they must be of the opinion that it is ok for a HOTM to be better than all the event heroes. I wish they would actaully enlighten me as to why this is acceptable. I am starting to think it is simply because they canât.
IMO, there are not only Telluria, also from the 1st HOTM = Hel,⌠Alby, Gramemaker, Evelyn, Frida, Miki.
I completely agree with your opinion. But HOTM is also not so easy to get for everyone, someone have try so many pull, not get HOTM (including me on some of month). HOTM is available only a month, and will appear in Atlantis (only 2x) which is much harder to get. And after 2x appear in atlantis, those HOTM not appear anymore in any portal (Iâm not including the next Tavern Legend beta).
Event heroes is available each month, every 5 month (per event). It is just a reference.
I just compare HOTM and Events both are rare.
I like the thought you put into this. But there are a few things id like to point out.
Yiur methodology for determining hero rarity is flawed. You use a single sample; in comparison, i have 2 event heroes, 2 s2, 1 s3, and 3 hotms. But another thing you have to consider is that the pool of hotms is much greater than other hero pools. There are way more hotms than seasonal heroes. But are there more alberich than mother north? A much harder question to answer.
To play the devils advocate, why should the rarest heroes be the strongest? I dont disagree with this sentiment, heck i agree with it. But its not a given this should be the case.
Finally, the point isnt that hotms should be the strongwst heroes in the game. I dont mind stronger seasonal heroes. The point is that new hotms should not be weaker than older ones.
The reality for me is I tend to get a lot more excited about pulling a HOTM than I do about a seasonal/event hero. The HOTM is a one-chance shot (minus the miniscule chance in Atlantis). Seasonal/Event heroes come around on a regular schedule, and tend to have niche attributes. For newer players most HOTMâs are beyond rare.
Agree on rarity with @Impiousbe HOTMs are what, 1.3% for each pull you make in a month. Event, S2, and S3 legendary heroes get lower odds, for only a few days while the event lasts, and are further diluted by the number of heroes in the pool for that summon.
People will be more vocal about heroes they either have in their roster, or often face in raids. Itâs why Tell, Neith and JF get so many votes - because YES, they are more likely to be found in the wild.
In principle I agree with making rarer heroes slightly more powerful without being game breaking. Your proposed positioning of HOTMs between S1 and S2 would be ok, in principle. The main issue I see is that there are quite a few OLDER and therefore for all intents and purposes unobtainable HOTMs already in play.
You canât really say Neith is better or even close to Drake. Ditto for JF vs GM. Heck, several older HOTMs are at least on par with the best S3 heroes. Alassi, Alberich, Athena, Evelyn , Frida, Zeline ⌠Kinda hard to reduce the power of future HOTMs without adjusting the ones already out.
So I just wish SG would do reasonable balance changes in the future instead of releasing heroes that are either too OP or relatively weak in the current day. The betas have been giving good feedback from what I can see posted here; itâs up to SG to listen.
For P2P or C2P, getting HOTM is very fun but for FTP getting HOTM is amazing⌠
As stated earlier in the topic my single sample was used as an example and not as my data. My methodology is based entirely on the pull odds of the portals. My pulls are simply an example of what ~10 months of regular summons can get you ( and trust me, my sample size is relevant ). To get a 95% chance to pull a HOTM you require no more than 232 pulls. To have a 95% chance to pull an event 5* hero that number is 1500. I donât understand why people keep picking at these straws when the portal odds can simply be read in the game. There really is no debate on whether or not HOTMâs are easier to pull or not. The numbers donât lie. It is significantly easier and cheaper to target and pull any one HOTM than it is any event hero. If people did only event summons and nothing else then it would take 2.5 years for any single event hero to be pulled as much as any one HOTM was pulled with those same exact pulls. That is disregarding any pulls in any other portal that may grant a HOTM. This isnât an opinion but statistical fact.
As stated in my original post the rarest heroes need to be the strongest to ensure variety and to have an incentive to get them. If your strongest heroes are too common you wonât see anything else as demonstrated perfectly by Telluria now. As an example if your best defence would contain Richards, Liannaâs etc then that is all you would see as everyone that has been playing for a while has these. If the best defence contains Finley, Black knight, Ursena, Sif, Boss wolf etc you will see a lot more variety as getting all those is extremely hard
This is the core issue of what I am saying. This power creep that is wanted by so many is in reality unhealthy for the game and its variety. If you want power creep at the HOTM level, and I agree this is something you want, you must have it at all other levels as well. This means that the F2P and C2P player needs to be able to advance as well as well as your top 100 player.
Three essential evolutions are happening as we speak and all are terrible for the longevity of this game :
The gap between F2P heroes and HOTMâs is getting wider and wider. As quite common HOTMâs become stronger and stronger it is becoming harder and harder to beat those heroes with a F2P roster. I have a P2P roster and find Telluria/Vela an issue. I can only imagine how far TC20 heroes will get you.
The gap between HOTMâs and your extremely rare heroes is getting smaller and at this point has become negative. The variety has been killed and the incentive to gather rare heroes diminished. If I own a telluria then why bother spending for a small chance at pulling Ursena, Guin, BK, Heimdall?
We are evolving towards a fleeting power curve. If your HOTMâs are the top of the power curve and they are constantly getting stronger then there is no longevity in your roster. The best hero in the game is simply the next one to be released and that requires you to constantly reinvest in the newest shiny toy in order to keep up.
In essence I do not mind strong HOTMâs and I think that power creep is required to keep the game fresh and exciting but you cannot limit power creep to only HOTMâs. You need to guard the power hiararchy as determined by rarity and the spacing between them if you want any chance of a balanced end game content. There will always be a âbestâ combination and you want that one to be rare and hard to assemble. If it is too easy to assemble you will end up with a situation where everyone is just using the same heroes as demonstrated by Vela and Telluria. Telluria would not be an issue if she were a S3 hero in my opinion but because she is so common she has basically destroyed all variety.
Closing statement to respond to others as well :
Pulling a HOTM should always be exciting. Pulling an event 5* that is six times harder to get should be more exciting and right now it just isnât. I have a Guardian Chameleon, Kestrel, Marie therese and when I got them I was just dissapointed I didnât get a far more common bonus draw. I wanted Telluria and was dissapointed that I got an event 5*. Something is wrong here.
Edit: for the record I do own vela and telluria. I even saved up gems to ensure I got them because I knew what was coming.
Hotm is 1.3%. But challenge event is 0.2 multiplied essentially by infinity. At this point youll have had as many chances if not more of guin or arthur or alice than any hotm.
Again, to play the devuls advocate, why does their need to be variety? Chess always use the sane pieces; both teams are exactly the same, have been for a thiusand years.
Finally, i agree, powercreep should happen at all levels, so with heroes academy, the older less powrrful non s1 heroes get released to f2p, while p2w players get new special super powerful heroes like frigg loki and clarissa ( oh waitâŚ)
Yeah except by infinity you mean once every 5 months.
As I said. If event pulls were the only pulls you could do then it would take 2 and a half years of pulls before any single event hero was pulled as often as a HOTM that was featured for only one event. That is if those were the ONLY pulls. Take in to account that there is also atlantis, S3, Costume chamber, Seasonal events and normal summon portals.
Let this sink in. If 30% of all your pulls in a month were done during an event it would take 9 YEARS before any one event hero was pulled as often as that single HOTM was pulled in that one month.
I really donât understand why you are even trying to argue this point with me? This isnât a matter of opinion but statistical analysis. HOTMâs are simply more common than others portal heroes and by a great deal.
Why does there need to be variety? Because variety is the bread and butter of this game. I have over 100 4 and 5 * heroes and you can only ever use 5 at any one time. I would like to use more than just the same ones.
Im arguing with you because your argument is completely flawed.
Other portals existing has absolutely no relevance in the conversation. If you bring in other portals youll have to compare the net difference between hotms and all of seasonal, costumes, s2 s3 etc heroes.
Your argument simply makes no sense there. And yiu are ignoring a bunch of factors that play against what you are saying, which i didnt hother mentioning. Like the playerbase was mich smaller when alberich or even gm was released than today, so the number of pulls was significantly lower. I bet you thoth is rarer than even finley for example because of this effect, and aldo because of the effect that finley simply makes people pull more.
If yiu want to use different heroes, you are free to do so. No one is stopping you and telling you you cant. Besides, in the first place the variety against rarity argument is completely flawed because its not like were making sharans and aifes the GOATs of the game. Hotms are rare enoguh that there would still be variety; the general direction of the game is the rarer, the stronger.
You are making the extrapolation that this has to hold on every single micro and macro level. To give an example, the super secret hero from the tavern of legends has the lowest odds in the game l. By your argument, if it wasnt the strongedt hero in game period, there would be no variety because the rarity to strength correlation was broken.
That doesnt make much sense to yiu, does it?
Thats not even considering the point that you would have variety still amongst different hotms, even if the rest of your arguments and assumptions hold true.
I think what is happening is youâre hitting a wall with who youâre getting and how many mats you have to max who you have. After getting 82 Chaoâs from your summons the new has worn off. Not to get too far into the weeds here but itâs like the first time endorphins are released from the brain your body thinks itâs the greatest thing ever and then you do the same thing again expecting the same result and itâs just not quite as good. 10 months in, youâve been through 2 cycles of event heroes, havenât been through all the seasonal? Youâre looking at the top 100 players going: what are they doing that Iâm not? FWIW Iâm no where near a top 100 player and Iâm curious if spending is really the reason. You see 55% or whatever you listed as Telluria tanks and you conclude that since those players set their defense that way and since that hero is a HOTM, the HOTM shouldnât be the most powerful since they are more prevalent. Iâm going to rely on the masses here but how long did the party wish for a good green tank option?? The best one prior to Telluria was Yunan, a seasonal hero. Other than that itâs Horghall?? Kashrek?? See where this is going? We finally get our green tank and now itâs like everyone is mad about getting our green tank. Right now we donât have this green tank figured out yet, thatâs because we havenât had to figure out how to defeat green tanks since idk when. I think the most powerful heroes should be random. We donât need to know where theyâre going to come from. I think the chaos is one of the better parts of this game. Also, looking at how costumes have now been maxed and fully emblemed, the highest team power (not that means much) that Iâve seen is comprised of 5 S1 costumes heroes with 20 emblems. Iâve been playing since Nov â18 and Richard is my most powerful hero atm. Itâs who you choose to max and how you play that determines your enjoyment and I think several players let others actions determine their enjoyment.
And what relevance does anything you are saying have on our current situation? Is your point based on the fact that an old HOTM is rare that a new one will be rare too by default? Is that what you are going with? Really? The rarity of Toth has zero relevance in this discussion. The chance to pull Toth back then was also multiple times higher than the chance to pull an event 5* and had the player base stayed the same then he would still be more common than the 5* event heroes released at the time.
My point is quite obvious and undeniable. The chance to pull any single HOTM is a lot higher than the chance to pull any single other hero. Numbers donât lie. If you have any actual numerical or statistical proof to the opposite I will gladly change my view but I am pretty sure you wonât find any since you are arguing against numbers and odds using assumptions and guesses. Like I said. Even if event pulls were the only pulls anyone every did it would still take 2.5 years of pulling at the same rate before an event hero has been pulled the same amount of times. HOTMâs can be pulled in every portal so that number in reality is several times higher. This game wonât survive long enough for Finley to become as common as telluria is.
By my logic if an event hero would be better than the super rare Tavern hero then you would see that tavern hero less than if he was the best because anyone who owns both would choose to use the stronger event hero. If a HOTM is even better you will see the event and tavern hero even less because everyone that owns that HOTM wonât use the other two. If a S1 hero is better then you will see the HOTM, event and Tavern hero even less because anyone who owns that S1 hero would choose to use that instead of any of the other three. If Aife was the best you would see only Aifes ( as you pointed out yourself ).
The more people own the strongest hero the less people will use other less powerful heroes. The more common that hero the less people have to use less powerful heroes. The further down the rarity chain your power curve goes the less variety you will see. The least variety will be had when your most common heroes are the strongest and the most variety will be had when your rarest heroes are the strongest.
I am not even talking in hyptheticals here. Telluria is living proof of what I am saying. She is easier to get than Ursena, Black Knight, Heimdall, Guinevere. The only people still running those heroes now despite them being harder to obtain are those that a) donât have telluria or b) donât have the mats to max telluria yet. Tell was up to 55% useage in the top 100 last time I checked ( unprecedented btw ) while the previous âbestâ tank Ursena was hovering around 30%. How much usage do you think a S1 hero would get?
We can argue whether or not HOTMâs can be considered common enough to be a big enough issue if they are the strongest. I think they are, you think they arenât and thats fine. We can argue whether or not variety is actually something that we want or is required, I think the game will die without it, you donât think it really matters. What I wonât do is continue to argue hard numbers ( HOTMâs being easier to pull )and basic logic ( common heroes being more powerful reducing variety ).
I actually was pro Telluria before she was released and will gladly admit my mistake. Green desperately needed a good tank so I think that is why there were less voices for a bigger nerf before release. I think everyone wanted a green hero that could hold their own at the top level. I saved all my gems starting in November to pull for Vela and Telluria because I was excited about the prospect. I own both and have one of those dreaded defences myself as I planned to.
Telluria for me was really just the eye opener to the underlying issue of rarity and power. The theory is pretty straightforward but it wasnât until Telluria that the possible ramifications became so tangible. When the best defensive heroes were the least common ones there was a lot more variety. Different teams that all worked but no single easy to construct beat all team. Now the variety is as good as gone.
If the game continues to evolve the way it is doing then the Jabberwoks, Finleys etc that you still see on the wings will just be replaced by HOTMâs to the point where the top 100 is just 100 identical teams. I donât think anyone wants that which is why I started this topic.
We need to really consider if these top tier HOTMâs is what is best for the game regardless of what is best for us personally. I own every HOTM since I started save 2 ( the ones I didnât really want ) so for my own roster top tier HOTMâs are better but I am not blind to the big picture and hope that sooner or later people will realise that we need to rethink the power curve and power creep before the game starts to die out.
I happen to like what they did with Vela and Telluria. It evens the field for newer players and players that donât spend as much.
The fact that the HotM is more accessible and is very powerful means more players can have comparable roasters and the game becomes slightly more skill oriented and slightly less luck/money oriented.
I like this trend and hope it continues!
There is something nice and exciting in getting a rare and special hero, but I rather win or lose based on skill and not luck or money. Or at the very least push the needle towards skill as much as possible.
For that to happen you need a more level playing field.
Iâve had a lot of succes killing Telluria- vela combos using 3-2 red green. I do have Telluria also but many times Iâve done well giving up lots of team power
Just from my small experience with this game only starting recently but I do agree not much reason for it but I need to beat the Titans.