⚖ Hero Balance Discussion: Miriam & Midnight

This thread is for discussing whether Miriam & Midnight is well-balanced, or whether you think he needs a buff or nerf.

This thread is NOT for general discussion of Strategy or Summons related to Miriam & Midnight. For that, please see: 🎃 Miriam & Midnight - 5* Ice/ Blue from Return to Morlovia (Halloween)

If you’d like to see more threads like this — or ignore threads like this, please see instructions in: 🔔 Watching or Ignoring Hero Balance/Buff/Nerf Threads

:bar_chart: Poll

  • I think Miriam & Midnight is reasonably well-balanced overall
  • I think Miriam & Midnight is excessively weak, and needs a buff (increase of their strength)
  • I think Miriam & Midnight is excessively strong, and needs a nerf (decrease of their strength)
  • I’m not sure yet

0 voters

:speaking_head: Discussion

  • If you think Miriam & Midnight is well-balanced, too strong, or too weak — why?

  • Are there specific, concrete suggestions you’d make to the game designers to alter Miriam & Midnight ? Or are there specific reasons you think they should remain unchanged?

Purpose of this thread:

To provide an aggregate place for the topic here on the forum; thus preventing there being a million threads popping up. And to provide an actual set of impartial votes rather than a #ideas-feature-requests which has no real voting.

In short, to neaten the forum and to give players and outlet for their thoughts on his balance without bogging down the rest of the forum or the other Miriam & Midnight thread.


The problem for me has never been M&M but the flanks (usually Anne, G. Panther, Baset, Quenelle and Khufu) that she boosts. I do have M&M but she doesn’t work on my defense because I don’t have the heavy hitting flanks that the big spenders have to make her a real threat.


Exactly I lost 150-200 cups overnight because even if I have M&M tank, flanks are not that great like others ( If synergy of M&M and Panther, Anne, Khufu is OP then all of them should get nerf or none) (Just like GTV)


I think Miriam & Midnight is too strong. M&M take 7 out of 10 in top 10 defense in no dark tournament. I mean there should be more yellow tank.


M&M is strong, but she is not unbeatable. Just because she is on defense more often doesn’t mean she warrant a nerf, if this logic applies, we need to nerf Anna, El Nadd, Hawthorne, Khufu, and every other strong heroes because you can’t beat them and they are too strong.

I have M&M maxed and this is my defense setup, I can wake up a morning and dropped from top 100 to 16000.


It’s not even a day after the summon portal is closed and here we are, they should make a few strong hero’s for tank position, let us use them as intended for at least 2-3 months before we start throwing the nerf conversation just because a few people dont have the counters or struggle. I struggle against her but its a bait and switch tactic if this is up the next day after you cant get her any more.


I’m more inclined to tone down heroes that do mass amounts of damage, AKA Khufu. Strong support heroes seem to be a challenge when paired with very strong offensive heroes, but otherwise are not harmful on their own. I think with the way the game is going and all the really strong offensive heroes on the horizon, we need more support heroes like M&M. Plus, she is wonderful to get through other parts of the game, ie towers/events and hard mode campaign. It seems not only unfair to nerf her after release and the portal closed (straight up bait and switch), but also because she was just a touch more accessible to FTP and CTP being that she was available for a longer period of time and with the use of EHT. Just my thoughts. So many people, myself included, still have a bad taste in their mouths about Telluria and Krampus. They were nerfed to beyond what they should have been, especially Telluria that is practically unusable now.


This is the same here as it is with most of the new heros. I think she is perfect by herself. The passives of 3 are what makes everything else really brutal. Tone down the passives and I think she would be perfect

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Totally agree with you that she’s not unbeatable.

I consistently raid against Miriam teams in high diamond and win.

Just go mono green. Ideally kill her early with tiles. If not, tiptoe around her to charge up the team and kill her with a round of specials. It’s harder to win if she manages to fire first due to her increasing attack up and overheal to her neighbouring allies, especially the likes of Khufu, Anne etc.

In the recent war, one of my alliance mates managed to take out a Miriam team that also included Alfrike. He took my advice and used a mono green team. By the way, his team included two 4* heroes.

So yeah, she’s not unbeatable. It’s just the usual calls for a nerf by those who haven’t figured out how to deal with her.


Is this just because she was a seasonal hero again and more easily obtainable that any number of the other overpowered heroes we have had released in recent months?? (That’s a rhetorical question BTW we all know the answer)
Before you all cry NERF! Please consider the counters.

  • There are many minion removers and anti-minion heroes in the game at both the 4 and 5 star level which can be used effectively against M&M tanks.
  • She isn’t at fast speed like some of the others mentioned above (Anne) being the prime example, I’m sure that if Anne were a seasonal hero top defences would probably have chosen Yellow over blue tanks.
  • At the pace of new hero releases within a matter of Months the counters will be come stronger organically and as long as she’s not nerfed to Oblivion she wont become Obsolete just a more balanced hero in tune with the Meta. (Xnol is a great example of this he would have had to give up the throne eventually, there is no need to force him out)

Lastly to all the nerf fans out there, please try and enjoy the challenge of finding unique synergies in a changing meta and thinking of creative ways to overcome the obstacles you face both in game and IRL :wink: Lots of Love, Mcnaulty :kissing_heart:


As far as I’m concerned, M&M is too strong. For an average hero (or fast with the family bonus) there is too much involved:

  • stealing buffs via her passive skill
  • boosting health
  • summoning beefy minions
  • giving back negative ailments
  • boosting heavily the attack of her and her flanks thanks to the berseker attack.

To counter her you need an antiminion hero, a debuffer, some hard hitters and avoid using great buffs because they will be stolen. All that with fast heroes because she, in the tank position and being average/fast, will charge very easily. She makes the flanks devastating, two c guardian panthers or c g panther + bastet and in a glimpse your team is annihilated. Therefore, a nerf is needed: a nerf doesn’t mean making her a trash hero, but lowering in power or number some of the five abilities she has.

For those who say “there are antiminion heroes, there are debuffers, there are…” As an owner of grimble, topaz, alucard, the hatter and some other great counters for M&M I must say that she is too strong even when you own and attack with the best counters on paper. I can’t even imagine how frustrating must be attacking M&M as tank for the major part of the players without all those tools.


Miriam and Midnight do not need to be nerfed. She’s not overpowered. You just need to figure out how to counter her with your own existing roster. The basics of the game. I go against her regularly in raids. She’s definitely not OP. However you do need to get creative with your team building. There is no one size fits all team out there so players need to build teams according to their opponent instead of complaining a hero is O.P. because their so called best team keeps getting beaten when facing this hero.


I don’t say she is unbeatable but I think she is too strong. I know there are heroes that can use to counter her but the result at the leader board doesn’t lie. As she take 7 of 10 in top 10 and many more below the top 10, that mean she is very strong even there are heroes that can use to counter her. This is similar to what happen to the old Ferant (before nerf) when he almost turn a 5* tournament into 4* tournament.

In 5* no purple tournament, we should see at least 50%+ yellow tanks at the in the leader board not a specific hero that isn’t yellow. In my opinion, this mean she is too strong.


For more information on the introduction of prime meta M&M teams to the top level I will refer to the Top 100 war results project and the stats collected on alliances using M&M and also those using a mix of M&M and a few other tanks and tank colors. You can see the resulting war scores posted for alliances fighting against this type of defense over multiple wars and the decrease in overall scores (during war). Feel free to review the statistical data to see the results of M&M being deployed in war defenses at large.


SG has their own metrics and they go off that. They will adjust if needed. Forum whines fall on deaf ears.

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I agree, but Zynga also releases OP just to nerf. A hero this OP will just automatically get nerfed to troll the players.

I’ve never had to skip over an opponent because of a tank. I’m starting now because I don’t have time to waste racking up 3 losses in a row to M&M at least 2/3 times I play vs. the card.

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Interesting. Is there any top alliance that use full M&M tank ? Does that alliance go well ?

As I mentioned on the other thread, a nerf is likely and I think necessary. We hope they don’t nerf too much though as has happened in the past. For me the only thing that makes her OP is the minions at 40% hp. You can’t very well attack the front 3 with status ailments while they are alive and they are very strong. The ready made antidote is of course Alucard so if you have him you’re ok, except in war if you’re facing a whole bag of m+m’s. :wink: . She will still be great if her minions have 20 or 25% hp. The only other thing to look at is the family mana bonus. Maybe could be tweaked down a bit.

I’m going to record several videos using different teams and strategies and post them on youtube just to show why this nerf is not just needed, but a must.
Last team used to loose three times in a row: hypnos, topaz, the hatter, naddaha and ana belle, most of them top heroes and counters for M&M, all at +20 and LB with maximum mana troops to charge faster.

Yup, we faced one last time. We lost by around 2,700 points. :sweat_smile: