Hero Academy! Can we please have more information?

Well now this is going in a completely different direction, and I agree, the way they worded their AMA, my proposal doesn’t seem likely at all.

But yeah, exactly, my proposal allows strategizing and more flexibility in when you want to use it, which types of heroes to chase, etc. I think

Is basically equivalent of saying my proposal is better for f2p players (that’s why more people will be f2p, thus eating into SG’s revenue). Which I agree with, which is frankly why I made my proposal.

I didn’t make it to benefit SG, I made it to benefit the players, us. Just in a way that I think SG might reasonably be willing to accept, versus giving out boat loads of free heroes.

Now in terms of your other point about the structures, well, I’m glad there’s finally someone who’s discussing what I originally intended to discuss about. I guess we’ll just have to disagree, because I still can’t understand what you’re gonna do with useless heroes, whether they’re 5 star or 3 star.

I think you’re falling for the sunken cost fallacy. Once you have your 5th quintus, that’s all it is. It doesn’t matter how you got it. it’s a useless hero, and it’s better if you could trade it for something better.

As to the point about 0 risk, i still think that leaves a few problems that I’ve pointed out earlier, mainly that older players with a deeper bench and more dups don’t have any advantage whatsoever, their dups are still useless, and also TC20 becomes useless once you get all of the s1 heroes you want.

So essentially, there’s 0 real benefit to 0-risk (because it’s still worthless to worthless), but it leaves some other problems that a more elegant solution could solve.

edit: Let’s not forget, for f2p players, there are also potentially quite a few 4 star or even 3 star event heroes that they might want, so it’s not necessarily a down trade.

edit2: @Rob_DI I just realized another perspective to think about this issue that might make sense to you.

You’re saying that you spent a lot of time and effort to get that duplicate 5 star hero (let’s call him quintus) so you don’t want him to end up being completely useless, right?

Well, true, in your proposal, that quintus didn’t become useless. But in turn, all of the other duplicate 5 star heroes you have remain useless, because all you need is that one quintus to use the HA.

In my proposal, sure, that quintus could become useless. But in exchange, all of the other duplicate 5 star heroes now become useful and a really good use of TC20.

I probably am a bit (but so would the loudest complainers on the forum). As I mentioned earlier, I still don’t have Joon, so the fact that that bugs me is probably shaping my opinion some as a 95% chance for a random S1 5* is a 4.75% chance at Joon, the best I’d ever see by far.

I’d also argue this. Let’s say in my proposal, you have a chance at one of the first 12 HOTMs released. That would mean a chance at heroes like Hel or Alby, that even with the power creep in the game would help anyone who doesn’t have them. Or maybe at first they include 1 Atlantis family. I think lagoon was released first, so Tarlak and Missandra would be a huge benefit to a lot of people.

Maybe I’m being overly optimistic with what heroes may be included, but there is definitely the potential for significant value

And neither of those things reduced the value proposition for P2P players. If anything those literally followed the Mo I described.

EHT for specials : P2P get more EHT’s through offers, higher event placement etc…
Event tokens : Top tiers in evenst grant event tokens. So people buying continues and Battel items profit. Again there are offers to buy these…

These things are lauded by F2P yet when someone suggests an application for the HA where F2P players get tokens for their useless dupes then people start to complain how P2P players have a greater benefit. The suggestion is literally the same thing as an event token or being able to use EHt for seasonals…

Why would the HA be any different?

I won’t sit here and argue that creating value for F2P players would be bad business for SG but don’t be fooled to thinking that they would do it at the expense of their paying customers. Many of the suggestions I have read would do this and others have no added value for P2P.

I fully expect them to give you this for free but You can be sure that that 5* hero will get consumed and that like with every other way of acquiring heroes there will be a chance that you get nothin in return. This will benefit P2P players who have more 5* dupes. You give F2P players a little and give P2P more as long as they pay for it. It is what they have always done and what they will keep doing.

They could, and this is a big question mark, implement something that benefits F2P and P2P equally but do not expect that implementation to include a chance at anything that you normally need to spend money to get.

Edit : Again, and I cannot stress this enough, I would like it to be different but I find the way people have reacted to bobs realistic solution rude and feel like everyone needs a reality check. This isn’t aimed at you btw but the first couple of reactions. The discussion happening now is civilized and I appreciate that

Not necessarily. The other dupes might be useless right away, but could become valuable. Let’s say I feed Quintus, and get crap. Feed that crap to get more crap a few times, but then finally get my coveted Joon. I keep Joon, and then feed my dupe Horghall for example, and keep feeding the resulting crap until I get something worth keeping. Then, I feed my current dupe Obakan, etc.

It’s certainly not immediate gratification, but they would (eventually) be used

Yeah, I mean I wouldn’t be upset with a good chance at Hel/Zeline etc at all. But I’m finding a hard time believing SG will be that generous unless s3 heroes and newer HoTMs really starts turning that power creep into a power jog.

I guess in the short term for mid-game players, your proposal is better. I’m still missing Vivica (which is my favorite hero in the entire game), Magni, Marjana and Lianna, to name a few that I could use. In the longer term though, we would have already gotten all of our favorite s1 heroes.

And I would still like a way to make use of those extra duplicates at that point, and would also like more veteran players with lots of dups to have some sort of advantage, somehow. I think it’s only fair.

Edit: Given that, the speed in which you convert dups into a desirable hero is slower than the the speed at which you obtain them (inevitable eventually), so extra dups are still worthless. Cuz you’re just going to pile up more and more and more as time goes on cuz you’re getting more new ones than ones you’re consuming.

Summons done right in a similar game who are not so tight on earning daily gems for your summons. 100 summons=Guaranteed Legendary, among the other items you earn while hitting the 100 mark to level your heroes. I have saved my gems for bout 3 months and am sitting at 60k plus. On top of all that when you pull heroes you don’t need etc you can turn them i to fodder for heroes you wanna level. SG could learn a thing or 2 on how to treat their FTP players from this company.

screenshot images of another game removed by @zephyr1 per:

Comparative analysis of games is very useful, just please explain rather than including screenshots. Thanks!

Good point. I’d probably stop running TC20 though (or only run a TC 20 if I needed it for food storage), so I could repurpose the resources that had been going to TC20 somewhere else.

I expect the Hero Academy to have Very Minimal benefit for P2P.

No p2p needs anything except maybe the ascension mats from top tiers in events, and emblems from weekly tournaments, so I feel the only real benefit for the tokens their are FTP/CTP. Sure the p2p get them as well, but its almost as valuable as 10 axes for them in terms of worth. They are not spending 10k gems value on money for 10 challenge coins or 6eht.

Definetly an issue for what your proposed solution solves but you run into a problem with the summon odds of a legendary s2 or legendary event hero being so small I cant imagine a Atlantis coin or challenge coin ratio that would work

Which is what I said in the earlier discussion about marginal value. That even though P2P would gain more tokens from HA when heroes would be consumed that their marginal gain is a lot lower per consumed hero.

Personally I would be happy if the HA allows for a 1 to 5 trade off. One 5¨* hero = 500 atlantis coins or 50 event tokens or 50 costume keys. Ideally this would also include a level where you could reroll dupes for a chance at different S1 heroes.

It really doesnt have to be one or the other.

Honestly: If I was given the opportunity to get a free Atlantis summon for every 5* traded I would take it of course because I don’t have a choice, but I wouldn’t exactly be jumping for joy.

In one sense it is FTP friendly because there are free summons; in another sense it is probably Pay To Win friendlier because they have stacks of 5* to trade for coins.

However we live in an unequal world and sometimes those of us at the bottom of the food chain have to take what we are given

That said, if this happened, my already low approval of SG would go down even more

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Tell you what. No matter what happens and what the final rendition of Hero Academy may look like, the playerbase will feel treated unfairly and deem the implemented solutions inadequate. Mark my words.

Hope for the best but expect the worst applies to future ‘features’ of the games as well and SGG have shown us they have the ability do do things the way the playerbase may not think best.

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That’s a given of course, the question is always going to be: how many?

So nobody knows the actual usage or the mechanisme of HA academy yet?
Btw, I don’t care much about the building extensions but S3 got me excited.
We badly need a new challenges, not new buildings that sapping most of the resources and took years to complete…lol. Jk.

I don’t think any type of player considers TC20 unfair. Not the F2P players who slowly build their 5* roster and get the missing 4* heroes. Neither the P2W even if they have paid to get their Lianna and Joon.

That’s why I think seeing HA as an extension to TC20 like TC20 was a great extension to TC13 would be the best way to keep as many players as possible satisfied.

TC20 allows F2P to catch up and have a realistic chance at some great (Lianna, Joon,… ) some good (Kadilen, Elena,…) and some relatively poor (Quintus, Elkanen) heroes. However, even running all four simultaneously guarantees a player that they get a specific hero in one, two, or even more years. Still, since early/mid '17 there have been better heroes out there.

Now that there are lots of–in some cases significantly–better 5* heroes, even compared to Lianna or Joon, out there. It’s logical that this wide gap should be somewhat closed. HA can be the right building to do this if:

  • some (but not all) of the currently untrainable heroes get added
  • all players have more or less the same chances once HA is built (so no gems, no dependance on too many 4*/5* heroes)
  • players can really improve (one or two random non-S1 5* heroes is a too insignificant improvement)
  • players don’t get heroes too easily to really hurt spending

That’s why I think 6-8 random non-S1 heroes per year isn’t completely off. If the pool is 30-40 heroes, it would take about ~5 years on average to get a specific hero which means it’s still quite unlikely to get exactly what you want. And I agree as well that it would be a shame if HA would return a 3* or 4* for trading in a 5* most of the time. Players would be furious and ragequit. Rather have at least one level that doesn’t ‘destroy’ 5* heroes but gives a guaranteed 5* back, even if training takes a week and the odds are 85-90 % that it’s still a S1 5*. This way, HA would at least significantly improve our chances to get the missing vanilla 5* heroes (just like TC20 gives us the missing S1 4* heroes)

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Small chance, SG can decide how small the probability is.

No, you can’t. You will need few months on average to get 1 of them.

Because you are not P2W. I know a P2W in my alliance. Each month he got 5 HoTM.

But the rebuttals are rebutted too.

It has to be longer than 2 days.

EDIT: my calculation is 3.08 not 3.3
That is only gem pulls, there are also:
2.4 atlantis coin pulls.
2.3 challenge coin pulls.
7 EHT pulls.
2 costume pulls.
(That is my monthly average)

10 times? By my last year standard, it is doubling. With 5% chance and 3 days duration, it will average each 2 months. It will be the same rate as non-S1 5* I acquired in the last 10 months.

Anyway, it doesn’t increase our total of 5*.

But challenge event last for 4 days and you get your result. However to build a high level HA, you might need a year more after you can assemble a team to do that in challenge event. (Note that during AMA, the developer said that exchanging hero is in the last levels not early level of HA).

EHT is only 1 of the source, there is also gems, atlantis coins, challenge coins, and costume keys (have a HoTM now). EHT is less than 50% of free summons for F2P. If the aim is doubling compared to all of the source, of course it will be more than 2 times from EHT.

As the developer said, the aim of HA is to make them usable, to raise their value, but in your proposal, you treat them with almost no value.

Actually, it can be included in the early level of HA.

No it is not because of that, it is because with your proposal, all P2W will get 30 free EHT per month.

In any case, I have to thank @bobiscool for starting this discussion. Too long the HA thread is inactive that SG might think we are going to forget it. With this debate, a lot of F2P can share their opinion and told SG what is unacceptable by majority of F2P.

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@yelnats_24 and thank you, for teaching me yet again that people vote and think with emotion, not logic.

That’s not the point of the argument. The argument is that you’re getting something people ar potentially paying hundreds of dollars for with NO ACTIVE ENGAGEMENT. That’s not fair to the spenders.

Exactly? So that means everything I said is f2p friendly! You are shooting your own argument in the foot!

No? I have pointed out logical flaws in all of your (and other people’s) rebuttals.

These arguments about specific timing is meaningless when you’re considering single dimension variables. It doesn’t matter if it’s 2 days or 2 minutes or 2 months, when other factors like % chance per proc and cost per proc influences the equation just as much.

That is YOU. Again, you can’t bring YOUR anecdotal experience and use it as the bible.

I can use my experience too. Over a year, less than 1 free pull per month. About 2 atlantis pulls because of the stages and mission coins, but that’s gonna dry up next year. 1 challenge pull per month (and none at the start when I was too weak to do challenge events). Averaging 1/6 costume pulls so far. 1 EHT per month.

I’m certain my experience resounds with the vast majority of the player base, not yours.

You can’t freaking include challenge ranking rewards as a guaranteed outcome for f2p players when there are only a maximum of 500 players who can obtain those 6 EHT per month!!!

Your standard last year is meaningless because it depends on those 120 unrenewable VIP days. And winning in challenge events. And How’re you gonna get 2.x atlantis pulls per month without coins from completing the stages?

Your numbers are completely disingenius and you know it. They are not replicable by the vast majority of the population and not replicable year over year. You can’t use them as a basis for any argument.

Challenge events are ACTIVE. And it’s not 4 days. It’s 4.x * 12 ~= 50 days per year if we’re going by yearly averages like we’ve been doing.

50 days of active playing, extreme active playing even. And you think 5 seconds a day to wait for buildings to build and iron to fill up is worth more? Really?

You can’t just make a claim and pass it as a fact. The objective truth is, my proposal does raise their value, just not as much as you hope it would.

How many players you know summons thirty duplicate, useless 5 stars per month? Assuming all of their summons are on atlantis, and ALL of their 5 stars are useless (which dummy would summon if every hero is useless?), that’s thousands of dollars every month.

Would a player who spends thousands of dollars every month really care about 30 free EHT and lower their spending because of it? Would they even bother to run the HA every single day diligently like a good little f2per to get those 30 free EHT? Or would they value their time and not care?

Do you really not see how ridiculous your claim is? Do you really not see how it makes no sense whatsoever to artificially make a feature that there’s absolutely zero incentive to spend money? To put it backwards, do you seriously expect SG will make a feature that would anger all of their big whales by making spending meaningless?

Sigh. I just don’t learn. People argue based on emotion, not logic.

It would depend I guess.

Currently there is a free feature to get largely non flashy 5* from TC20

So as to ensure that spenders don’t get angered perhaps TC21 or HA would let you have a small chance eg 2% at either the 2017 HOTM or the less popular HOTM, eg Margaret, Thoth–Amun but not Alby or Zeline

Would obviously prefer the former but would be OK with the latter. Don’t know how you’d practically measure popularity though

I don’t consider anything unfair, per se. That’s not the point of anything. Everything is “fair”. The only thing that matters is where people’s money goes.

Funny thing, I was playing a game called Seaport; great game. Actually, I hate match-3 games and never play them. In contrast, I love merchanting games and games involving ships. Seaport was a great game. I was hooked for a year. But I never spent any money on it.

I am a pretty extreme person. I NEVER spent a single dollar at the movie theaters. Ever. Before E&P, my entire spending on ANY type of videogames in my entire life added together was less than 50 dollars.

In the first month of E&P, I think I spent about 50 dollars. More than my entire lifetime spending on video games up until that point.

The point isn’t about fairness. It’s about where people’s pocket money goes. E&P had a good way of making people want to throw money at them, that’s why they’ve been placed as one of the highest grossing games with revenue in the hundreds of millions of dollars.

Out of millions of games, out of tens of thousands of active programming teams, it’s them, nobody else.

Paying ~$3 dollars for a 3% shot at some digital numbers in a database somewhere? Really? That’s not cheap anyway you slice it. But it works.

That’s how they do things. That’s what makes money.

Giving everything away for free might sound nice, but it doesn’t make money.

But I digress. going back to the point about TC20, TC20 certainly makes sense right now, with the advent of Atlantis, lots and lots of HoTMs and so on. I don’t know how long TC20 was out before these features were out, I don’t know how the playerbase was back then, i can’t comment.

But there has to be a good layer of incentive above what’s easily obtainable by passive f2p in order for a very good majority of players to want to spend money.

You keep mentioning specific heroes, which is an appeal to emotion and not relevant to the discussion. In the greater scheme of the game, different people target different heroes, and none of it matters other than for the very big spenders.

If I’m a small-mid spender and I want a GM, I might save up and blow all my money in June for a chance at GM. But JF comes out, and even though he’s significantly nerfed and weaker than GM, once I have JF, I completely lose incentive to blow all my money on GM.

Similarly, even if you don’t get that exact hero that you’re after, the virtue of having other equally good heroes lowers your incentive to spend, period. I don’t see how this is controversial.

Now we’re basically going back to how many tries do we expect to get. 2% is meaningless in a vacuum; how much time/resources does it take? How much effort? I could see 2% being extremely low, or extremely high, or just right, depending on any of the other factors.

But I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect that f2p suddenly has 10x the chances of getting special heroes by virtue of a single, passively used building. Twice of what we had before is already huge, considering it’s twice of every other part of the game added together from a single building.

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