Hero Academy! Can we please have more information?

Sorry but we are just following what @bobiscool said about what is F2P friendly which is actually a definition I agree with:

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Nothing makes any sense and everything is meaningless until you start making comparisons.

This sounds “hard”.

But let’s take a step back and look at the current situation. Some guys were arguing earlier, I can’t remember if it’s this thread or another, about how many gems f2p players can get. It might’ve even been yourself who’s in that argument, actually.

One guy argued 1.5 pulls worth of gems per month, another (I think it was you), said you can average a 10-pull every 3 months. That’s 3.3 pulls per month.

3.3 pulls at Atlantis or whatever per month. What’s the probability of getting a non-S1 5 star hero from that?

And now you want to AVERAGE a non-S1 5 star hero every 2 months? And you’re saying that’s “hard”? That’s like 100x or even 1000x better than the current situation for f2p. That’s not f2p friendly, that’s completely breaking the balance between free and paid players.

He also paid hundreds of dollars for those dup 5 stars. That’s not a newly created disparity.

That’s not what increasing or decreasing disparity means. Your suggestion is ABSOLUTE 0 disparity. i.e there is ZERO benefit to be a p2w player. Which is absolutely ridiculous any way you slice it.

What’s reasonable is not INCREASING the disparity; i.e paid players still have an advantage, but we don’t want that advantage to be too big. It would be better if that advantage shrunk. but the game’s completely dead if there is absolutely NO ADVANTAGE to be a paid player.

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You didn’t get the meaning behind it, so I would make it clearer:
if everyone could perform a certain action to get an expected outcome/benefit who would benefit the most?

  • The ones who can perform said action more times
  • Clearly not the one that has less way to perform said action

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Yeah, “FaIr To FrEe To PlAy”

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I do averaging 1 non-S1 heroes every 2 months in the last 10 months, so that is only 2x not 100x or 1000x as you claimed.

I might be wrong, but I dont see them giving money makers heroes like Hel, Athena, Alberich, etc, for free

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How? Either you have some secret method of obtaining a lot of free gems somehow, or you just got lucky.

I got exactly 1 free non-S1 5 star in my 1-year career of playing; a King Arthur. Still my best hero.

We can’t look at individual anecdotes, we have to look at % calculations. How many pulls can you average per month being completely f2p? And then use those percentages to calculate an average outcome.

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And yet you still fail to take in to account the relative value of what you are getting.

Who is better off? the poor person who gets 5 free meals or the rich guy who gets 20 free meals. Poor guy is stoked, rich guy couldn’t care less.

Yeah the rich guy gained more but the poor guy has the most benefit relative to his situation.

Just ask youself. How valuable is each of the summons you get to the person getting them. Clearly 5 extra atlantis summons to a F2P player will give them much more value than 20 extra would give a player that already has those heroes.

This is classic marginal gains theory. this is high school material where I am from…

I have both :yum:

I already put on the forum how to acquire 800 gems per month as F2P; how to acquire 120 days of free VIP, where to get 150 coins each atlantis rise.

Anyway @bobiscool , lets talk about your idea once more.

I just check my hero roster and it turn out I only have 9 duplicates (that include 2 Sartana and 1 Joon that I don’t plan to convert).

Meanwhile I have a P2W alliance teammate who have 300 dupes of 5*.

With your system it only need 9 days for me to conver my dupes into 9 EHT. After that I need to hope for another 5* dupes if I want to create another EHT.

Meanwhile my P2W friend will have no trouble creating 300 EHT for the following 300 days. And he can continue on and on with new 5* dupes he pulled regularly.

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But why not make a system where both poor guy and rich guy each receive 10 free meals?

Sadly personal feelings don’t have anything to do with fairness in treatments :cry:
And fairness in this topic is about the F2P friendliness of HA

You’re confusing yourself because both f2p and p2w are getting the same HA so they are both getting 10 free meals.

@FraVit93 what you’re describing isn’t f2p friendly, it’s absolute equality, and makes 0 sense whatsoever because it leaves absolutely no incentive for players to spend money, thus no one will spend money, thus SG gets no revenue, the company goes bankrupt, and there’s no more game for anyone to play. It’s ridiculous.

You need to look at relative value and marginal values and marginal disparities.

You make a great point here about how the HA is mostly useless once you run out of heroes to use, and that’s going to happen. At that point, I guess you can go back to TC 20s. I don’t really believe it makes sense for it to be guaranteed to return a 5 star.

I mean, if you’re guaranteed to get back your feeder, then there’s absolutely no advantage for older players with 20 dup 5 stars on their roster, versus a new player who got a single Quintus. And that doesn’t make sense, right?

Doesn’t it make sense older players with more dups have more chances?

As to the amounts and time, I like @TomSnow 's point and think it might make sense to increase the time a lot, say 30 days per action, and also increase the amount of coins given, say 1000 atlantis coins per 5 star.

It is about value propostion.

To be truly F2P friendly you need to creat a system where the value proposition for F2P is equal or greater than the value proposition for P2P players.

I agree that the “reroll” system also has that base covered. I was never arguing that it doesn’t. I also clearly stated earlier in the topic that this is a system that i find acceptable. I am simply arguing that the Coins idea is also F2P firendly while several of you wre stating that it is not and that when comparing the two I don’t think that “not F2P friendly” is a correct or valid argument.

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Thank you for thinking of a concrete idea and being ready to discuss it.

Well, F2P can obtain paywall heroes through tokems from Atlantis Rises, quests, events, wanted missions etc. Your model doesn’t give them this chance, it improves it (and only slightly, as you see below). Your 1 5* hero = 1 summon, 10 4* hero = 10 summons basically adds a small extra chance if a summon or training hasn’t given the desired result. Let’s calculate how much your conversion idea improves TC20, which is by far the main source of heroes for F2P:

5 % of trainings are 5* heroes, 20 % of trainings 4* heroes (estimated percentages, we don’t know the exact ones). Therefore, one TC20 training is worth 0.05 + 0.2 * 0.1 = 0.07 portal summons (assuming the player can only get useless heroes or dupes out of TC20).

As 1-4 as well as 6-9 are quite comparable, I just take 3/8 (challenge coins) as exemplary combination (could also look at 1/6, 2/7, or 4/9)

Event 3* have a 7.9% chance. 0.07 * 7.9% = 0.553%. So it takes about 180 TC20 trainings to get one event 3* hero.

Event 4* have a 5.7% chance. 0.07 * 5.7% = 0.399 %. About 250 TC20 trainings to get one event 4* hero.

Event 5* have a 1 % chance. 0.07 * 1% = 0.07%, meaning it takes a whopping 1428 TC20 trainings on average for an event 5* hero :scream:

HotM have a 1.3 % chance. 0.07 * 1.3% = 0.91%, meaning it takes almost 1100 TC20 trainings on average for the current HotM.

Just compare this to the 5 % or 1 in 20 chance for vanilla 5* from TC20 and you will see why your concept does not really add much value for F2P players.

Even if we would add the unused 4*/5* heroes from gem summons and tokens obtained ingame, your concept of HA would give less than one non-vanilla 5* hero per year to F2P players while TC20 gives a constant stream of heroes. If HA should really be a significant upgrade of TC20, the odds have to be sharply increased.

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@bobiscool no, this is what you were saying, by making heroes’ conversion into the ugly brother of summoning portal, with tokens, keys and coins instead of gems.

My suggestion/hopes can be read here:

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I have to join the bandwagon of people disagreeing with this. You want HA to convert a 100% chance of a 5* hero (i.e. one you already have) in to something that will be a 3* or 4* about 97% of the time? Your idea for HA is basically for people to get a worse hero 97.2% of the time for a chance to get a better hero 2.8% of the time (I know this math isn’t technically correct, but it’s close enough). How is that friendly to anyone?

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I have done 190 pulls in the last 10 months (with the help of 120 days of free VIP which equal to 12 pulls). I got: Ariel, Mitsuko, 2× Thoth, & Vela.

If a 5* is converted into another 5*, lets say with 5 days duration. As both F2P and P2W only have one HA, they can only make 1 conversion every 5 days. As the result is also a 5*, it can be reused, therefore the F2P do not run out of 5* to use. It make them equal to P2W in HA conversion frequency.

Could you please point to where someone said this? Because I can’t find it and your comment here seems like an extreme straw man.

The most reasonable proposals here to me are a long training time with a small chance at a great hero, but the most likely outcome being a similar hero. Like, you trade Horghall for the miniscule chance of GM or Finley, but most likely you get an Obakan or Khagan. That way people at least aren’t going backwards, which is what your proposal would do.

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@TomSnow I made a reply earlier outlining the current situation

So the basis of my posts is that this is the reality we’re dealing with. I want a 5% chance to turn my Quintus into a gravemaker every day too. But it’s unrealistic to expect that SG will make that chance from 3% to 80%.

We’d be lucky if we can double our current chances; add the equivalent of another 3.3 pulls per month’s worth of percentage points for a non-s1 5 star hero. That would be a good f2p feature in my books.

With this in mind, I think we can come up with more reasonable and realistic numbers.

edit: To me, it makes no sense comparing with vanilla 5 stars, because we already haave the option of using TC20s. It doesn’t take away that option at all. s1 5 stars is not in the same league as non-s1 5 stars, just as 5 stars are not in the same league as 4 stars. It makes no sense to look at 4 star draw percentages and then say that the low 5 star percentage means it gives no benefit, right? So it’s the same thing here.

And you people keep building a strawman when I keep regurgitating the point about TWEAKING NUMBERS AS YOU SEE FIT. And you people keep pretending that those numbers are stuck in stone.

As to your point about going backwards, it only makes sense. Otherwise a new player with a single Quintus has just as much chance and sway with HA as a seasoned f2p player who collected tens and tens of s1 5 stars from TC20 throughout his years of playing. Does that make sense to you?

You can only retrain 1 hero at a time, and that hero always gets recycled. So all of the other dups are still useless. Makes no sense to me.

Every day??? You only have 1 HA, and there is no way the duration is shorter than TC20.

Anyway it is not 5% gravemaker, that is insane.

There are around 66 non-S1 5*.

5%/66 = 0.075% (1 in 1333)

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