Ham & Cheese guide to QUITTING THE GAME

[Dyna49]

@BobTheSnark

But for many purposes, the difference between a 15yo car and a 1yo car can be… actually pretty small, certainly in terms of what “many people use a car for” (outside of specialist uses like racecars, or entirely different kinds of car, like traditional gasoline-powered vs all-electric), assuming the older car is kept in good repair.

That’s very incorrect. My 2021 Outback gets way better mpg, is much more comfortable, entertainment system in it way more enjoyable, I can go off-road in it, can carry way more in it, can go on long road trips in it, maintenance is way lower…just to name a few as there are more advantages that it carries…when compared to my 2000 Buick Century that I drove while I was going to college.

You’re bringing down the new car to the level of the old car and going “See, both can do the same thing” when it is absolutely not true in many aspects. So again, while it can remain useable for many things, it cannot compare to a new car. And guess what? It takes money to go from a 15/20 year old car to a newer one as I guarantee you that my 2000 Century would not be able to do what I do in my 2021 Outback.

For all intents and purposes, Joon cannot compare to Anne…gap of 5 years. Of course the newer one should be able to handle new events/challenges in an easier way while Joon will struggle more. Joon is fine in many aspects, just like my 2000 Century, but when it comes to going off-road, it would struggle, just like Joon will in newer events/challenges.

@BobTheSnark

Also, of course, the differences that do accrue do so more on the scale of 15 years than of 15 months.

Yep. Just like the difference between events 3-4 years ago and events that have been released in the last few months.

@BobTheSnark

And my old smartphone isn’t keeping me from doing things. —Or if it is, I literally don’t know what I’m missing.

I very definitely know what the difference is between uncostumed Joon and Anne, from the business end of that difference. And my non-modern, non-mega-deep roster is very visibly making more of the game more grindy and less accessible.

Better hardware. Graphics, processing power, screen quality/refresh rates, etc. Same concept. Computer graphics cards are a perfect example. My GTX 450 from a few years ago would not be able to do/keep up with what my GTX 3080 can do. While it may be able to run the same games, quality at which it runs them is completely different. Again, takes money to keep up with the joneses here as well.

@BobTheSnark

I’m not building barricades, waving a red flag, and chanting “eat the P2P!”

But … those of us who don’t spend as much, or even at all, we keep this game alive too. Or would the biggest spenders prefer to be stuck in a tiny cage match against 99 other similar spenders, and that’s it?

I’m not so naive that I expect big spending to produce no advantage. But maybe I am naive enough to expect that the game shouldn’t tilt more and more approaching entirely pay-to-win either,

The game has been this since day 1. It’s just more noticeable now. I recall your comments on the conquest of elements thread and how you’re not happy with having to change your leveling approach to give yourself best chance at being able to complete the quest because you like to level 5 different colors at the same time to maximize the xp. Or how using the battle items is a waste. Well, if you don’t want to change your leveling approach, use battle items, or spend some…I don’t know how anyone can take that as as any other way except you expect to keep up with the joneses while not spending or doing what is needed as a F2P to get things done. Don’t get me wrong, I do believe that there are plenty of things that should be done to improve the QoL for everyone, but this sort of cements your expectations as higher than they should be as a F2P. Spenders SHOULD have a noticeably bigger advantage. Someone who spends $0 shouldn’t be on the same playing field as someone who spends $1000, period. I shouldn’t be close to them. And I’m saying that as someone who spends less than $50 a month.

While F2P definitely carry their weight in keeping up the player base, you’re also enjoying a product for free while those that spend and spend more than you or I, actually keep the game alive, period. If all the spenders go away, how long do you think the F2P can keep it going? Before the QoL completely tanks, adverts start flooding, or it gets simply shut down? You can take it anyway you choose to, but the primary goal of a business is to make money. When was the last time you walked into a store, filled your cart with items, refused to pay for the items, but expected to be treated as those other paying customers?

@BobTheSnark

Plus, even from a spender’s point of view, the whole release-then-nerf and/or release-then-release-something-else-not-just-better-but-that-makes-your-previous-hero-something-approaching-pointless has to be getting wearing. So… even if the big spenders really are all who matter, a crazy release schedule which starts alienating even them — never mind the rest of the playerbase as a whole — seems counterproductive.

Well, I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said here, but that’s another topic entirely.

@BobTheSnark

I’m arguing that spending shouldn’t become increasingly dominant, which it sure seems to be, and could cost this game players from across the spending spectrum.

And that’s not good for anyone.

Keeping up with the joneses vs live within your means. Everyone has to make their own choices and set realistic expectations. It affects you more because you let it and because you don’t spend. Affects me less because I don’t let it and the amount I spend actually nets me a return here and there.

[BobTheSnark]

@Dyna49

you’re not happy with having to change your leveling approach

I’m not happy because I’m currently level 76 and some forumites seemed happy to write that off as “well some NEWER players might have problems with this event.”

I’m… not a newer player. I make no claim to be anything like the longest-playing player on the game, but I am very definitely not a “noob.” That an event and its defenders seemed ready to say “lol well just spend more, noob” to folks who’ve been playing for years? Yeah, no.

——

I talk too much anyway, and an extended argument about cars and phones may not be contributing, so let me summarize:

How many F2P players are going to feel the incentive to even “only” spend to be VIP, if they feel like they are being blown out of the game?

How many players who currently “only” spend on VIP, or “only” spend on VIP + PoV passes, will continue so spending…

…if they feel that, say, 10-15 pulls a month are going to vastly leave them behind even for playing many events, much less competitions, even at ~$200/yr?

If anything, I’d argue there are recent trends to the opposite (see, as just one example, the existence of this thread).

At some point, current power rush is betting that whatever number of players spend, say, thousands of dollars a month will be happy to keep spending thousands of dollars a month to replace the heroes they spent thousands on last month, given the current pace.

Betting the entire game on that and quite possibly demonetizing or even losing much of the rest of the playerbase seems like a bad bet to me.

——-

And on a personal note: I try in my posting to be open-minded about how people choose to spend on this game, whether it’s a lot, occasionally, some “vc2p” limitations, or f2p, or anywhere in between.

When I come onto the forums and see other forumites saying what sounds like “well basically you should just spend more or it’s not FOR YOU, so suck it up or quit”?

Yeah, there’s a reason a thread like this exists, and people consider quitting in response to that.

[Lc_noob]

In most top-grossing games, the whales represent the smallest percentage of users who are responsible for 50% or more in revenue sales of an app. In other words, there’s a small number of mobile game whales, but they account for the majority of a game’s revenue.

Sadly the game has reached a stage that not many new players are joining. With shrinking player base SG has chosen to please the whales to keep their business rather than encourage more FTP players to do ctp.

Ranting and crying for nerfs under every newer op heros thread won’t change the trend.

[Mikal]

Not all players feel like they’re being blown out of the game. Not all players expect to play in the top 100. There’s thousands of players content to play the game with the heros that they pull and deal with the challenge of not playing with the best heros the game has to offer.

[DoctorStrange]

No game should require a budget to play all aspects to your best capabillities, that should be core game design.
As soon as people can purchase garunteed advantages its no longer a game. Tell me a lie told.

[Dyna49]

@BobTheSnark

I’m not happy because I’m currently level 76 and some forumites seemed happy to write that off as “well some NEWER players might have problems with this event.”

I’m… not a newer player. I make no claim to be anything like the longest-playing player on the game, but I am very definitely not a “noob.” That an event and its defenders seemed ready to say “lol well just spend more, noob” to folks who’ve been playing for years? Yeah, no.

Wasn’t talking about your level because I know you’ve stated multiple times that you’re not a newer player, but specifically about your pushback on suggestion to level up heroes of the color you needed for the contest of elements quest that would actually beneficial. But your response was excuses such as the ones listed in your reply in the link below as to why you shouldn’t have to. Was simply making a point about expectations you think you’re entitled to versus what reality really is.

Contest of Elements Terrible for Newer Players

As to the first part, it’s arguable how beneficial it is, because it’s two draws max, as far as we know: so the vast majority of the time, two feeder heroes. (Also, for players with insufficient roster, we’re talking about literally burning twice as many battle items, plus arguably a greater need to do so than for other events.) As to the second part, it’s more like I was slow-leveling one hero of each color, to maximize feeding heroes of the right color, and now I sacrifice that exp bonus…

@BobTheSnark

How many F2P players are going to feel the incentive to even “only” spend to be VIP, if they feel like they are being blown out of the game?

How many players who currently “only” spend on VIP, or “only” spend on VIP + PoV passes, will continue so spending…

…if they feel that, say, 10-15 pulls a month are going to vastly leave them behind even for playing many events, much less competitions, even at ~$200/yr?

People who are F2P are likely to remain F2P regardless. If your roster is as you’ve listed it in the Contest of Elements thread, you’ve likely been a an F2P since the start and will likely not spend ever, regardless. If you do purchase an occasional VIP/Valor, you’re not getting nothing in return. You’re getting what your $4.99 includes (2nd builder, emblems, loot tickets, and daily gems that you can use for a chance at one of the portals) or what the PoV includes (a bunch of stuff with actually a solid value for the price).

You’re attempting to equate VIP/Valor spending (less than $200/year) to those who spend the same or more in a month or a week. So, while you may get 1 here and there with that kind of spending (per the odds that are clearly stated for everyone to see) to those who pull until they get what they want. There is a huge disconnect here and expectations are well above where they should be.

@BobTheSnark

If anything, I’d argue there are recent trends to the opposite (see, as just one example, the existence of this thread).

Literally every game has a life cycle, especially mobile games - and that’s a fact that that you can easily verify. Vast majority of them, 90+% will be lucky if they make it to a full year before going under. The fact that this game still has as high of a participation as it does 5+ years in is quite a feat. Especially a gacha game. So according to historical data, this game has been and still is a success. The fact that this thread exists isn’t affirmative of anything at all except that there is a very very vocal minority that isn’t happy that their time/maybe some money put in hasn’t produced the results they feel entitled to.

@BobTheSnark

At some point, current power rush is betting that whatever number of players spend, say, thousands of dollars a month will be happy to keep spending thousands of dollars a month to replace the heroes they spent thousands on last month, given the current pace.

Betting the entire game on that and quite possibly demonetizing or even losing much of the rest of the playerbase seems like a bad bet to me.

I’ve linked Zynga’s financial SEC reports in another thread a little while back. Their revenue is down a bit, but still well over $20 million/month. What revenue do you think the game will have to drop to in order for it to become unprofitable for the devs? From their SEC numbers, plenty are still spending. There are plenty who spend $5/$10/$20/month and will keep doing so. A lot more than there are on the forum here venting their frustrations.

This is nothing new. Has been around since Telly/Vela/GM 2.5 years ago. And what happened? People kept spending because most enjoy the game. Crystal balling the doom and collapse of this game is a joke right at this point.

@BobTheSnark

And on a personal note: I try in my posting to be open-minded about how people choose to spend on this game, whether it’s a lot, occasionally, some “vc2p” limitations, or f2p, or anywhere in between.

When I come onto the forums and see other forumites saying what sounds like “well basically you should just spend more or it’s not FOR YOU, so suck it up or quit”?

Yeah, there’s a reason a thread like this exists, and people consider quitting in response to that.

Well, I’m not keen on telling people to quit or spend or anything else. I play the game with an understanding that just like many forms of entertainment out there, it requires some money to be spent. I also understand that it’s a business and that a customer who spends money, especially a lot of it, will be priority. Set your expectations right is all I’m saying. Doesn’t matter if you’re a level 20 or a level 76 F2P. You think a restaurant will view a couple who come in, order a couple of sodas and a basket of fries to share the same way as a couple that comes in and orders appetizers, full course meals, and a bunch of glasses of top shelf whiskey? Absolutely not. But both can enjoy the environment, occupy a table, and consume what they paid for.

And again, I agree that QoL can definitely improve all a round, starting with the rewards from events/challenges/odds/etc, but a gap that exists between someone who spends $5/month and one who spends $500 should definitely be noticeable when it comes to all aspects in the game. Just being realistic here and not an attempt to tell you to quit/suck it up/or whatever else.

[Ham.Cheese]

Maybe I should start a guide about getting along with other formers

[Lowratehitman]

I left the game for roughly 2 years and was delighted to see how much the game had changed, and have been back for roughly over a year now.

Lots of changes are truly still needed.

I remember when the HOTM was truly an investment to get, and it tool an act of congress to get ascension materials.

Sometimes just a quick uninstal and coming back at a later time works wonders.

Enjoy the break!

[BobTheSnark]

@Dyna49

If your roster is as you’ve listed it in the Contest of Elements thread, you’ve likely been a an F2P since the start and will likely not spend ever, regardless

Actually, I started as F2P, actually have tried being C2P more recently, and honestly, I’m kind of regretting it.

I’m not really convinced that the spending has significantly added to my fun, and it certainly has hardly added to my roster (which is certainly my biggest bottleneck).

That is a real problem. If customers start spending money and don’t feel more satisfied as a result, you’re probably not going to keep them as paying customers.

Never mind that players who are already paying customers and feel like the game is accelerating beyond their budget are going to feel every incentive to scale back their budget or stop spending if they feel it is no longer helping.

By itself, this is a problem, but if the game and even the forums take the attitude not that “spending is an advantage” but “spending is nigh-necessary, and if you don’t spend more than X, you’re maybe not even a real player,” that’s a pretty great way to turn off existing and prospective customers.

@Dyna49

expectations you think you’re entitled to versus what reality really is

HA

Entitlement? The single biggest “I hate nerfs” argument I see is “I spent money/resources on this hero so YOU CANNOT TAKE IT AWAY FROM ME no matter what its effect on game balance or that I very well know nerfs happen.”

Compared to that, if “I’m reasonably a veteran of this game and expect that new events should be at least approachable without having to spend well above the $200/yr level” is entitlement, then I suppose… increasingly enjoy a game that’s only for, and eventually only contains, the top 1000 spenders or so?

@Dyna49

Literally every game has a life cycle, especially mobile games - and that’s a fact that that you can easily verify.

I’d argue that one of the reasons E&P has had a long life cycle is that for a good while, it struck a balance between “spenders get an advantage, but f2p/light spenders can still be competitive to a degree and eventually work their way into completing most everything.”

There has always been power creep, but arguably slow enough that people could adapt to many changes and eventually get a few of the more recent heroes to compete against those who got them sooner and still have more.

Challenge events could cater to the biggest spenders with leaderboards, but still reward smaller players with significant emblem drops.

Now the pace over the last…year?…or so has been accelerated so much that it is a reasonable challenge even to know all the new heroes, much less acquire any significant subset that has the hugest new abilities.

Events are increasingly exclusionary and/or long, grindy and tedious (especially for anyone outside the “I have the ultra combo for this event so I just auto’d it, lol” echelon)… and generally not for increased reward, despite requiring more effort, time, and/or resources.

In a nutshell:

It’s one thing to know the ship you’re on won’t sail forever.

It’s quite another to seize the helm of the Titanic and deliberately aim for the nearest iceberg while slamming the throttle to flank speed.

…and yet another to tell the passengers that this “was just always inevitable.”

[Homaclese]

@BobTheSnark

if “I’m reasonably a veteran of this game and expect that new events should be at least approachable without having to spend well above the $200/yr level”

What % of events arent accessible?

6 weeks in ln my ftp account and i feel i can complete more than half of pve content with my 3* team

[Dyna49]

@BobTheSnark

Actually, I started as F2P, actually have tried being C2P more recently, and honestly, I’m kind of regretting it.

I’m not really convinced that the spending has significantly added to my fun, and it certainly has hardly added to my roster (which is certainly my biggest bottleneck).

That is a real problem. If customers start spending money and don’t feel more satisfied as a result, you’re probably not going to keep them as paying customers.

If you’ve been playing for years and just recently started being C2P (mind you that C2P is not the VIP or Valor), then I’m not sure where your expectations are, but they may be a bit too high.

@BobTheSnark

Never mind that players who are already paying customers and feel like the game is accelerating beyond their budget are going to feel every incentive to scale back their budget or stop spending if they feel it is no longer helping.

There will always be those, just like there are those unhappy with their internet/cable subscriptions when they get a price increase while not getting an improvement in services they’re paying for. Leaving them to shop around for something else.

@BobTheSnark

By itself, this is a problem, but if the game and even the forums take the attitude not that “spending is an advantage” but “spending is nigh-necessary, and if you don’t spend more than X, you’re maybe not even a real player,” that’s a pretty great way to turn off existing and prospective customers.

I think you’re exaggerating here a bit. While there are those that may have that feeling, there are many more of those who are truly F2P and enjoy the game and what they can do in the game with what they have and continue playing it. I’m in an alliance that has spenders and non-spenders alike and a few sister alliances with spenders and non-spenders. Those who don’t spend literally do not share that sentiment at all.

@BobTheSnark

Entitlement? The single biggest “I hate nerfs” argument I see is “I spent money/resources on this hero so YOU CANNOT TAKE IT AWAY FROM ME no matter what its effect on game balance or that I very well know nerfs happen.”

Compared to that, if “I’m reasonably a veteran of this game and expect that new events should be at least approachable without having to spend well above the $200/yr level” is entitlement, then I suppose… increasingly enjoy a game that’s only for, and eventually only contains, the top 1000 spenders or so?

Yes, entitlement. Nerfs are something else. I don’t like nerfs personally, but there is that Terms of Service we all accept when we install the game.

Your “veteran” status is completely irrelevant. I know players that have beat vast majority of the events/challenges with mostly 4* heroes and battle items. If you don’t want to change your leveling approaches because you like to level 5 different colors at the same time to maximize the xp or dont’ want to “waste” your battle items to give your self a chance to finish an event, then you’re not doing yourself any favors. Most if not all events are definitely approachable by someone that’s level 70 and above. If you choose to not level duplicates or “waste” battle items then you can’t claim new events aren’t “approachable”.

And again, $200/year if you’re only getting VIP/Valor, is not for nothing. You’re getting plenty in return. The fact that you’re not getting a new 5* whenever you do the few pulls, well, odds speak for themselves.

@BobTheSnark

I’d argue that one of the reasons E&P has had a long life cycle is that for a good while, it struck a balance between “spenders get an advantage, but f2p/light spenders can still be competitive to a degree and eventually work their way into completing most everything.”

Not really. I started in August 2019 and it’s been ramping up noticeably since then. People are still spending and obviously still willing to spend. The only reason you noticed that “balance” back then is because there were only S1 or S1/S2 heroes available. As soon as S3 came out and everything else after it, it changed for those who don’t spend. What if the game when it came out had all these current portals, events, etc? Would it have been balanced?

I know plenty of C2Ps that are very competitive in areas they have the heroes for - 3*/4* tourneys, rare/epic challenges, etc. Very attainable as an F2P. They understand they wont’ compete in the aspects that require 5*s because they don’t spend as much as the odds require them to. Odds haven’t changed. People just adapt to what they are willing to spend, if they spend, and what is available.

@BobTheSnark

There has always been power creep, but arguably slow enough that people could adapt to many changes and eventually get a few of the more recent heroes to compete against those who got them sooner and still have more.

It’s been 5+ years. If you’re relying on mostly S1 heroes yes, it’ll definitely seem like the power creep is out of control. So, it’s very subjective.

@BobTheSnark

Challenge events could cater to the biggest spenders with leaderboards, but still reward smaller players with significant emblem drops.

They still do. You get a few hundred emblems after completing all 3 stages of a challenge event + free pulls. I’ve hit the rng jackpot with those free pulls as have many. All of them are still approachable and can be completed by someone that’s level 70+

@BobTheSnark

Now the pace over the last…year?…or so has been accelerated so much that it is a reasonable challenge even to know all the new heroes, much less acquire any significant subset that has the hugest new abilities.

You’re right. It has become more accelerated in the last year. But people are still spending, regardless. A reasonable challenge to know all the new heroes? Not really. Anyone who spends as much time on the forums as you or I do, I’d reasonably expect them to read more than just the General Discussion section. If you don’t, then I don’t know what to tell ya. And you don’t need the latest/greatest to enjoy the game.

@BobTheSnark

Events are increasingly exclusionary and/or long, grindy and tedious (especially for anyone outside the “I have the ultra combo for this event so I just auto’d it, lol” echelon)… and generally not for increased reward, despite requiring more effort, time, and/or resources.

Sounds like you have a lot more grievances to sort out then just the “I want the events/challenges to be approachable by a veteran player like myself”. This tells me your definition of “approachable” is something you don’t have to try very hard at (just shy of auto), don’t have to attempt more than once, don’t have to use battle items, don’t have to invest much time at all, don’t have to level dupes, etc. In my view, this boils down to expectations. These events are far from exclusionary. They are more difficult, but not impossible, and for F2P they should be more difficult, but not impossible (which they’re not). If you think they shouldn’t be as a F2P, then…expectations are a bit off. I’m sorry if that sounds harsh, mean, whatever, but that’s what it is. However, I definitely DO agree that the rewards should be much better than what they are.

Anyways, I wish you well and as I’ve said before, it’s important to set the expectations right. It’s worked for myself as it has for plenty out there still enjoying this game.

[LucasDaoc]

I don’t understand how people can be addicted to a mobile game. If you don’t like E&P, just play something else. If it’s not worth your time, do something else with your time. Easy.

[BobTheSnark]

If we’ve reached the point where others feel the need to explain to me how I’m feeling, then at best we are having completely different conversations and my responding further isn’t helping.

[natefrog]

@Ham.Cheese

Instead of $99 pack diamond, spend it the girl next door or your family or co-worker. I guarantee you you’ll feel loved more than when you show off your Alucard after 400 pulls.

As funny as this is (made me lol irl) it’s actually a really good point.

[natefrog]

I’ve completed step 2 at the beginning of the year. I’ll continue F2P until end of season 5 and then decide if I’m moving on to step 3 & 4.

[Dyna49]

Observations are made based on your comments. You can’t hold that against the other side when every one of your points has been that money spent shouldn’t have as much to do with the “keeping up with the joneses” as it in reality does, or the fact that from a business point of view more attention should and will always be given to those who spend…not just here but in life in general.

Anyways, I do wish you well and hope you hit the RNG more often. Cheers.

[Dyna49]

You know, if it wasn’t for that “2nd account and chest beating” bit, maybe he could have gotten a benefit of the doubt. You’re not wrong in your assessment. Sadness/envy is all it is.

[DoctorStrange]

@Dyna49

someone who spends $5/month and one who spends $500 should definitely be noticeable

No one should ever be spending 500 dollars per month on a game without cash incentive as a reward. Tell me a lie told.

[Ham.Cheese]

Stay strong and remember, there’s no shame restarting at step 1

[Ham.Cheese]

I have homaclese on ignored cause he’s the type that always want the last say and yet I find your dig to be tasteless and unsportsmanlike. Not cool bro