Grimble not damaging QoH allies

It has been already officially stated that we should expect hero skills to be processed line by line from the top. It’s not “all at once”.

I think what needs to be explained is the taunt mechanic.

Lets say I use Grimble on a team with QoH holding 1 card, like the scenario on the video. At the exact moment I tap on Grimble, the code could probably solve the taunt effect in the following way:

1- QoH has a card, so because of taunt, she will receive all the effects from the upcoming Grimble special.
2- There are 4 more enemy heroes, because of taunt, all of them will ignore all the effects from the upcoming Grimble special.
3- Then, solve the special only on QoH and ignoring everyone else. STEP 3A destroy QoH minion, STEP 3B aplly damage on QoH, STEP 3C give mana to allies, STEP 3D apply elemental link on dark allies.

That could explain what happens on the video.

Please let us know what is the reason.

Grimble
Taunt are based on Minions, and Minion killed by Grimble 1st (so taunted effect should be disappear or dispelled because no more protection from minion), then 2nd special Grimble attack should have advantage here.

Kageburado
Counter attack/buff is dipelled, then Kage attack.

It should be clear explanation why grimble does not have advantage after killing minion? If it work as intended, the special written in cards should be changed, 1st attack then 2nd kill minion.

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It is very difficult to word things in exactly the right way to anticipate all current or future interactions. If you have ever played the board game Twilight Imperium, you will understand what I mean and also why I am sympathetic (and yes, despite giving them a hard time here and elsewhere lately, I really am very sympathetic to many of SGG’s problems) to the difficulties inherent in this type of situation.

Where the TI team runs circles around the SGG team is that they are notably fantastic about customer interaction, answering these sorts of questions, and providing clear answers.

This is the issue, as I see it - from Queen of Heart’s card:

The Playing Card Minion gives its owner Taunt. Taunt prevents the enemies from using their Special Skills on Minion owner’s allies

That is a wording that was probably clear at the time it was introduced. It has since become ambiguous, due to Grimble’s release. I see two possible interpretations, both of which I think are in line with the text, as written.

  1. The minion, upon creation, gives the owner Taunt. Taunt becomes an inherent trait of the hero, NOT the minion, and therefore persists upon the minion’s demise.

  2. The minion provides Taunt to the owner only as long as it survives.

Petri’s response does not clarify which of these is the intended (or even just preferred, at this point) behavior. Saying, “…Grimble’s special should work as intended” (emphasis mine) is a particularly poor word choice, as it similarly lends itself to multiple interpretations.

  1. This is how we intend Grimble’s special to interact with the QoH.

  2. Grimble’s special should work, but it does not / is not right now. I mean this the same way that, if you were raiding Guin and brought a purple stack and put a three match on her that somehow caused no damage, an appropriate response would be, ‘ramming three purple tiles into her should cause damage to her.’

I am salty about this. Partly because it’s the exact same generic response I received in my thread about Neith and Onatel’s interaction. Neith resists Onatel’s special and staff said it was fine and what they wanted. But they did not say why they want it that way (it feels a little like a sneaky buff for Neith, who probably needs it), nor did not answer why both the wording of the cards and the inherent resistance icon on Neith’s card suggest she should NOT be immune to Onatel. A simple response about how they didn’t think about that but now want it to be this way or thematically they feel it’s right because xyz reasons (in which case I’d want to know why she’s affected by Alasie), or whatever would have been vastly superior.

We have the same problem here - clarity on why Grimble’s card is currently seemingly violating the top to bottom application that we all expect from Kageburado’s card is warranted. Additionally, I do not see QoH with the Taunt icon (as we see when Black Knight fires), suggesting that it is the MINION who has Taunt, NOT QoH. So from my perspective, SGG needs to say who has Taunt and add the icon the QoH, if that’s what they want (that will provide clarity, be relevant to buff booster tournaments, and also should then be stealable by Hatter).

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After reading the skills of Grimble and Queen of Hearts in conjunction with answers to other questions, I understand that Grimble’s ability works as damage to all opponents.

At the moment of triggering the ability that destroys all minions, only Card Minion can be affected, as the others are protected. After that solve the other skills in the order laid out in the card.

In this line of thinking I imagine that Grimble when facing Black Knight, only some Black Knight minion is destroyed and later only Black Knight receives damage (or not).

P.S .: This is my first post here and English is not my native language. So I apologize for any language errors or the use of the forum tools.

BK does not depend on minion like QoH.
Here is BK special: The caster gets Taunt that prevents enemies from using Special Skills on the caster’s allies for 3 turns.

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I mean some hero has summoned a footman for the Black Knight (for example by Mother North).

Then we would have the following situation:

1 - Mother North summons a footman to all allies;
2 - Black Knight fires his ability;
3 - Grimble fires his ability and destroys only the Black Knight minion, because the others are protected;
4 - Grimble only deals damage to the Black Knight, also because the others are protected.

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I don’t think that’s what they intended, either; that would mean that the minions would absorb the damage and any minions alive would then be eliminated. I think they intend for the minions to be eliminated and for the damage to be applied to the hero. Against a hero with several minions (Puss? Seshat?) your ordering wouldn’t reliably do any damage to the hero.

@Dhimitri, correct, that should be as intended. Nothing conflict. Because taunt still active not depend on minion.

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Does anyone consider what I suggested about taunt? What if taunt is solved before any of all Grimble’s special effects?

What if after tapping on Grimble, taunt is solved and the only available target is QoH, so she, and only she, will get all effects from Grimble’s special, starting from top to bottom (her minion is destroyed, she recieves damage), while everyone else is protected from all Grimble’s special effects because taunt was solved beforehand?

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Hi, I’ll discuss with our designers and hopefully we’ll be able to provide a bit more detail on this. I just wanted to quickly note after our QA checked that there should not be bugs related to this.

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Yes Grimble designed to kill minion 1st… and it is strange if the order is switched, the damage is useless.

For QoH, that is taunt depend on minion, should be fixed, or explain why after minion killed, the taunt protect still active?

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I agree with this reasoning because I can picture this in code - when casting a special, the system assigns the target(s) first based on modifiers and rules of the special (who is nearby, taunt, etc.)

But I’m curious, and I’m not just asking @Wormwood - how do the blue chain hitters (CoD, Finley, Misandra) work against QoH (assuming the first blow kills her minion)?

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She intercepts them just the same…

Then I would say that the behavior for taunt is consistent across the board, and it is clearly processed at the top of the hierarchy of assigning impact for a special skill. It deals with a different mechanic than the Kage example some have mentioned.

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Exactly. But also, Kage is a moot point as he only attacks a single hero anyway.

…that’s the entire question. Why would that be the case? We have evidence, and apparently an official statement, that separate steps in specials resolve in order. This is why Kagaburado doesn’t take Counter Attack damage: the dispel resolves, then the damage resolves.

To determine whether that is the correct interpretation, we should see what happens when BK has taunt up and Snow White triggers.

If it’s as you say, then SW should only be able to remove BK’s buffs, should only be able to damage BK.

To parallel your example:

1- BK has Taunt active
2- There are 4 more enemy heroes, because of taunt, all of them will ignore all the effects from the upcoming Snow White special.
3- Then, resolve SW’s special only on BK and ignoring everyone else.
–3A- Remove Taunt, etc, from BK
–3B- Apply damage only to BK

If that’s how Taunt is supposed to work, that it persists after it’s been removed, that’s stupid OP.

On the other hand, if it works the way the rest of the game works, what should happen is the following:

1- Taunt limits the effects to Taunting heroes
2- Any effect that removes the source of Taunt (Minon for QoH, Buff for BK) causes the set of Taunting Heroes be reanalyzed
3- Any remaining effects from the special in question take effect based on the reanalyzed list of Taunting heroes.

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Thank you Petri :slight_smile: I want to add more to the discussion too, on the way it should work.

First on the way it’s working right now:

  • Card minion active with Taunt
  • Grimble use skill:
    1. “Destroys all minions” – ergo card minion should get destroyed (and only card minion, since taunt is still active)
    2. "damage … " – but only Q. of Hearts gets hit.

But the way many users expected Grimble vs Q. of Hearts to work is as follows:

  • Card minion active with Taunt
  • Grimble use skill:
    1. “Destroys all minions” – ergo card minion should get destroyed (and only card minion, since taunt is still active)
    2. "damage … " – all enemies get hit

This is because of the order of how Grimble’s skill lists what it does. If the card minion is destroyed first, then ergo I can see why many expected Grimble to hit everyone afterwards.

What does make sense is if only the card minion is destroyed – since it has taunt, Grimble’s “destroys all minions” part of the skill should only target Q. of Hearts. That part is correct – it’s the damage that should be hitting all enemies (I agree with players saying the damage should work this way).

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Thank you, Petri. I’m sure I’m being a nuisance in this thread, but I will accept whatever answer you come back with, as long as it is clearly communicated (just as I accepted the answer in my Neith vs. Onatel thread, even though I disagree with it).

I will be appreciative for any explanation.

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I think that’s is the clue, if after the source of Taunt is deleted, the taunting effect is reanalyzed or not.

Appearently not, it persists even if the card is gone, which as you said, is really OP

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