Firing order for specific heroes—an interesting question

[JekylandHyde]

These heroes all have no emblems—just basic maxed cards.

Almur > Buddy > Mist > Buddy
-54% EDD, -34% DD, -34% SDD and then final hit from Buddy #2

or
Mist > Almur > Buddy > Buddy
-34% SDD, -54% EDD, -34% DD, and then final hit from Buddy #2

In the first scenario, there is 1 DD in play, then 1 more and then all 3.
In the second scenario, there is 1 DD in play, then 2, and then all 3

The second would seem better on the basis of counting of active DD’s; however, Mist hits harder than Buddy so does the loss of not having DD on Mist’s hit get made up for by the extra DD in play?

Almur is 622 @ 120% to 3
Buddy is 531 @ 205% to 3
Mist is 682 @ 175% to 3

@Guvnor Do you have insight on this one?

Thank you.

[Ruskin505]

I’ll let Guvnor do the actual math for you, but I’ll give rough math.

My instinct would be Almur > Buddy > Mist. I would think Mist with a defense down > Buddy with a buff to special skill damage. I removed Almur from that calculation for simplicity since in both cases he comes before Buddy.

Rough math:
Mist > Buddy
682 * 175% = 1193
531 * (205% + 34%) = 1269
Total = 2462

Buddy > Mist:
531 * 205% = 1088
682 * 175% = 1193 (I’ll leave out Buddy’s defense down for now)
Total = 2281

2462 - 2281 = 181 difference in damage attributable solely to Mist’s increase on Buddy. I probably did not need to include Mist’s damage above, but I won’t delete it now. Also Almur can change this.

So to make it equal Mist would have to do 1193 +181 damage (aka 1269) or a 16% increase.

Ignoring the real math, a -34% defense drop would increase damage by more than 16%.

@SolemnWolf

Damage ≈ 100 x ( θ x Att / Def ) ^ 1.35

I’m sure many can explain and calculate this better than I can. I looked for the tool to calculate damage that Guvnor used in your Teltoc post, but couldn’t find one. Guvnor, is that your personal spreadsheet? Is it shareable?

@Guvnor

As a complete asside, firing Frida first then Athena has this outcome.

Total to target = 11,894
Total to nearby = 4,572

[JekylandHyde]

Thank you. I appreciate the effort I did fire Mist 3rd in the event, but was challenged on that fact and it got me to reconsider this particular firing order.

[Ruskin505]

You have me questioning my logic so it’s a fair question. I just don’t think the additional damage from special skills is strong enough since it’s additive versus multiplicative.

I’ll do some more rough math assuming a heroes have 500 attack and 500 defense and a 200% special damage

Base damage = 100* (200%500/500)^1.35 = 254
Damage with 34% increase to special skills = 100 (234%500/500)^1.35 = 315
Damage with 34% decrease to defense = 100 (200%500/(500(1-.34)))^1.35 = 446

[Guvnor]

I can run some numbers tomorrow. Sorry been away on holidays haha.

[JekylandHyde]

No problem. Enjoy your holidays. This will be an interesting answer so I appreciate your crunching.

[Zathrus]

I’d demand a full refund from Guvnor if I were you!

On a serious note, is the spreadsheet you use for this available anywhere? Or is it just made from scratch every time?

[Ruskin505]

I tested Mist and Buddy this morning on Santa’s Challenge Normal stage 2. I have both with 18 emblems. Buddy has 636 attack; Mist has 766.

Option 1: Buddy then Mist
Buddy dealt damage between 361-380.
Mist dealt damage between 533-574.
Interestingly in both situations the monster that received the most damage from Buddy also did from Mist. Same with the monster that received the least damage.
So total damage ranged from 894-951.

Option 2: Mist then Buddy
This was tested against the Boss wave and I had already killed one of the monsters.
Mist did 381 to the snowman and 284 to Boss Buddy.
Buddy did 486 to the snowman and 354 to Boss Buddy.
So total damage was 867 to enemy snowman and 638 to Buddy.

The 867 damage from firing Mist then Buddy is lower than any of the three snowmen from the previous wave (minimum damage was 894). Buddy then Mist will result in 3-10% more damage

So based on my test (caveats listed below), fire Buddy then Mist.
Caveats: random number, Almur not included, my heroes are emblemed and I may have emblemed them differently than you would, and I only tested this once.

As a more direct comparison:
Buddy direct damage did 361 (minimum) and then 486 with Mist’s boost. That is a 34.6% boost.
Mist direct damage was 381 and 533 (minimum) with Buddy’s defense down. That’s a 39.9% boost.

[JekylandHyde]

I appreciate the efforts and documentation here.

I do think it is imperative to the original question to include Almur.

In this order:
Almur > Buddy > Mist > Buddy
Buddy 1 has one ailment active, Mist has 1 active and Buddy 2 has 3 active

In this order
Mist > Almur > Buddy > Buddy
Almur has 1 active, Buddy 1 has 2 active and Buddy 2 has 3 active.

The point of the original question is does having the TWO active ailments when Buddy fires better tan the first option when Mist, who fires stronger, has the DD active.

[Peazomanco]

My logic says that the heroes with highest attack will fire when the hero is at his weakest peak.

I usually play with mist and Grimm, Grimm has higher attack than Mist, So I should fire Mist first, but as I mostly play berserk mode I just pulverize first and ask after.

Almur is fast and Buddy average, holding Almur will imply losing green tile damage and mana charging Buddy. moreover: Almur special damage is poor, so He should fire sooner. But Mist won´t get any profit from Almur debuff.

So the ideal scenario: Mist, Almur Buddy, is the best option, but firing Almur As soon as he is charged (unless you ´re aiming to counter max health buff) is also important.

[Ruskin505]

@JekylandHyde

I do think it is imperative to the original question to include Almur

Ok here’s my newest best attempt:
I used Santa’s Challenge Hard Stage 4 for testing

Option 1: Almur > Buddy > Mist
195, 485, 376 respectively for 1056 damage total

Option 2: Mist > Almur > Buddy
277, 274, 562 respectively for 1113 damage total, a 5.4% increase over option 1
Both were calculated against a red snowman. The pictures below show options for blue snowmen in option 2. One blue snowman received 13 more total damage and one 13 less than the red snowman.

In both cases Buddy x2 would do the same damage.

All heroes have at least +18 emblems so not exactly what you originally asked and the same caveats as above still apply.

Another way to view the calculation is the difference in damage done by each hero in each situation.
In option 2 Almur deals 79 more damage (41%) and Buddy deals 77 more damage (16%). In option 1, Mist deals 99 more damage (36%).

This is blowing my mind. I was pretty confident Almur > Buddy > Mist was going to be the winning combination. Based on one test, it looks like my assumption was incorrect.

Option 1 pictures:

Option 2 pictures:

[Ruskin505]

@Peazomanco

Almur is fast and Buddy average, holding Almur will imply losing green tile damage and mana charging Buddy. moreover: Almur special damage is poor, so He should fire sooner. But Mist won´t get any profit from Almur debuff.

So the ideal scenario: Mist, Almur Buddy, is the best option, but firing Almur As soon as he is charged (unless you ´re aiming to counter max health buff) is also important.

This hasn’t been brought up, but I’ve assumed this entire discussion is based on the specials purely and not related to how you may actually play. I envision this is either going into the boss wave fully charged or using mana pots to fully charge the heroes.

[Guvnor]

I have it built into another spreadsheet filled with E&P goodness

It houses all my tracking / information etc… So I built in the Damage Calculation & then have it referencing back to an encyclopedia style thing with all the hero information.

I plan to maybe one day finish formatting it all out properly and then perhaps uploading it to the interwebs but for now it’s just private use.

[Guvnor]

Alright @JekylandHyde I have only looked at your specific two examples. I think that there are better options to use for the final striker than Buddy due to his stupid low attack stat but that’s by the by… You can sub in any other hero and the outcome will be the same (in terms of the firing order).

Scenario 1 – Almur > Buddy > Mist > Buddy

Total damage to target = 2,244

Scenario 2 – Almur > Mist > Buddy > Buddy

Total Damage to target = 2,449

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So the final strike is the same damage either way (obviously). The main difference comes from when / what is affected by Mist’s damage really…

In scenario 1, both Mist & Buddy #1 strike are affected only by 1x debuff.

In scenario 2, only Mist’s strike is affected by 1x debuff… Buddy #1 strike is affected by both Almur & Mist’s debuff.

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Scenario 3 – Almur > Mist > Buddy > Little John (+CB)

As a case study to show how much better it would be if you included someone with a better attack stat I have used Little John (with costume bonus) who has equal highest attack stat of the 4* green heroes.

Total Damage to target = 3,084

Scenario 4 – Almur > Mist > Buddy > Gadeirus > Little John (+CB)

Final scenario if you were to include Gadeirus into the equation:

Total Damage to target = 5,771

Click for alternate spot testing of Gadeirus

Firing after Mist but Before Buddy (buffing Buddy also)

Total to target = 5,779
So basically the same… But have to fire out of order (left to right) which is annoying.

[JekylandHyde]

I love and appreciate that you did this, but it does not appear the scenario I asked was processed:

I do not see this one: Mist > Almur > Buddy > Buddy

This is the order I did fire: Almur > Buddy > Mist > Buddy
It was suggested firing Mist first.

Thank you for your time!

[JekylandHyde]

note I know Buddy’s attack is not wonderful. This took place in a Bloody Battle and I was using 2X Buddy for Minion health

[Guvnor]

It will come out ahead.

Again, reason is the number of debuffs in effect.

Almur then mist = 0 debuffs
Mist then Almur = 1 debuff.

But can run maths tomorrow if you want.

[JekylandHyde]

You do not have to put yourself out of the way on this question. The two scenarios I questioned did not have an Almur->Mist order

The question is the first scenario has 5 buffs in play and the 2nd has 6 buffs in play, but the first has buffs happening before stronger hitters. The root of the question is which is better more buffs on a lower hitter or fewer buffs on a harder hitter. There difference is Mists power versus the power of Mist’s special

Almur > Buddy > Mist > Buddy
-54% EDD, -34% DD, -34% SDD and then final hit from Buddy #2

or
Mist > Almur > Buddy > Buddy
-34% SDD, -54% EDD, -34% DD, and then final hit from Buddy #2

In the first scenario, there is 1 DD in play, then 1 more and then all 3.
In the second scenario, there is 1 DD in play, then 2, and then all 3

The second would seem better on the basis of counting of active DD’s; however, Mist hits harder than Buddy so does the loss of not having DD on Mist’s hit get made up for by the extra DD in play?

Almur is 622 @ 120% to 3
Buddy is 531 @ 205% to 3
Mist is 682 @ 175% to 3

[Guvnor]

Sc. 1 Almur > Buddy > Mist > Buddy

Total = 2,490

Sc. 2 Mist > Almur > Buddy > Buddy

Total = 2,812

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As predicted, Sc. 2 gives out more damage

[JekylandHyde]

WOW! That is a huge difference. Thank you for your time on this.