🧪 Early information on the November 2021 HOTM -- Balbar

It is still possible to miss when firing a dart at unmoving board.

Hit or miss is based on 2 aspect:

  1. The hitter’s accuracy
  2. The target’s evasion/dodge

Sleep only affect the target’s evasion/dodge but not the hitter’s accuracy. Sleeping person are unable to dodge but the attack can still miss if the attacker’s accuracy is low.

However, in a magical game like this, there is a possibility that the dodge was aided by magical buff so even when they are sleeping they might be able to dodge, not because they actively dodging but because the magic protect/move them while they sleep.

Doesn’t work that way, unless the card specific says ‘while asleep, the target cannot dodge special attacks’ it will dodge while asleep. It would be a bug if it couldn’t dodge the special attack

Even though a hero can dodge in their sleep by magic, consider that some heroes who have dodging buffs are not of magician type. The Magic Tower event has shown us that classes belonging to the magical group are wizard, sorcerer, druid, and cleric, right? Let’s check each hero who can evade or have dodging buff.

  1. Evade: the only class that can evade is rogue, and that’s not “magical”, therefore invalid.
  2. Margaret’s buff: she’s a rogue, not “magical”
  3. Inari: she’ also a rogue, not “magical”.
  4. Costume Little John: ranger, not “magical”
  5. Hanitra (upcoming HoTM): monk, not “magical”
  6. Costume Kadilen: sorcerer, magical.
  7. Ninjas: so far the only “magical” ninjas are garnet and cobalt, the rest (onyx, mica, jade, ametrine, sapphire, shale) are not “magical”. But by common sense, ninjas in real life are not known to cast any form of magic, so sensibly they should not be considered “magic”. Also the Ninja Tower event has alternating appearance with the Magic Tower event, further suggesting that ninjas are not “magic”, right?

(Do I miss any hero?)

So far, the only hero that can dodge and is “magical” is Costume Kadilen, so how does the “magical” interpretation can apply? Even her special skill’s name has no reference to magic at all: crescent shield—where is the “magic” in that? Even she—the only supposedly “magical” dodger—can hardly support the “dodging by magic” theory.

That’s why I have been asking for a reconsideration of the card that an asleep hero should not be able to evade or dodge under the effect of a buff in their sleep, cause that would make no sense at all, and that the line in your quote should be added to this hero. Would you want to let Balbar cast his skill to a target to put them into sleep, then cast another sniper to the said target for the 50-60% extra damage, then the said target evade/dodge your snipe hit, wasting the skill of one of your hero, and leaving you in confusion: evading/dodging in their sleep, really? how could a hero, by common sense, evade/dodge while being asleep? by what mechanism? And as I have explained my points above, definitely not by “magic” at all. So then by what? Can you just let the nonsense get away like like that? Even if it’s just a mobile game, it should not contradict common sense.

I do agree regarding the talent, but not the buff.

Most of the buffs are magical.

Monk should have been magical. It is a crime that SG fail to put it in Tower of Magic magical class. Aeron??? Raffaele??? Marie-Therese the Voodoo Queen (SG logic: voodoo is not magical)??? Rana???

Only you said that. Even if that’s so, so what? You still haven’t substantiated your claim that dodging buffs are magical. Let’s review each dodging skill.

Magaret’s skill’s name: hide in shadow—where is the magic?
Inari’s: lucky nine—where is the magic?
Costume Little John’s: massive cleave—you call that magic!?
Hanitra’s: dancing dodge—where is the magic?
Again, CKadilen’s: crescent shield—where is the magic?

You cannot just give some random statements like “most X are like Y” and giving no points to back up your claims like that.

If you think the monk class should be magical and be added to the Magic Tower event then you can create a new topic perhaps even accompanied with a poll to solicit everyone’s opinions on that, and see how it goes from there. I personally would vote “no” on that, cause in real life, monks are not known to learn and cast magic (here is the reference: Monk - Wikipedia). Also, the none of monk heroes that you mentioned above other than Hanitra has dodging buff, so they are not relevant to this “dodging in sleep” discussion.

First of all, I was the one who siad magic and what I mean is not related to what SG believe as magical class.

You cannot use real world monk for comparison. Real world cleric do not do magic, in fact cleric is more administrative while monk is more spiritual. If Cleric is magical, then Monk is magical. I already complained about it in the beta-beat.

So you said Raffaele skill is not magic? So you also said the voodoo of Marie Therese is not magic? In case you don’t know, they are Monk class. What is in Aeron’s hand if not magic?

This is why I don’t define magic as limited to the heroes SG put as magical class. A lot of hero who use magic were not in the 4 classes.

It doesn’t necessarily need to be magic even though it can be a magical shadow that confuse the attacker. It is not like she dissappear from your sight like Ameonna or the digger mole. If she fall asleep while hidden in shadow, regardless of whether the shadow is natural or supernatural, it will still be harder to hit her.

Inari is Fox Spirit. If you know eastern mythology, you would have know that fox spirit heavily utilize magic skills.

Moon magic. It even summon minion from the dodge, what is that if not magic?

This one is camouflaging. You don’t need to actively dodge, so sleep or not does not matter. His design is clearly camouflaging ranger. Name does not matter, if name matter, then explain to me how massive cleave help dodge for he and his allies.

I am not in beta so I don’t know the animation or picture. But there are magical dance. Dance are utilized a lot in magical ritual. In-game example is Guardian Gazelle.

You can say that you want to use your own definition of magic but this is SG’s game so we have to follow their definition of magic, not yours. (Unless you can change their mind about which heroes and which classes and which skills are magic and which are not, which are reflected in the Magic Tower event)

As I have said above, those heroes do not have dodging buffs so they are irrelevant in this “dodging in sleep” discussion.

Margaret and Inari are rogues, and you know rogues do not use magic.

Camouflaging is magic!? Definitely not, as you can clearly see he has a lot of leaves around him, so he camouflages by hiding in bushes, no magic involved. And no it doesn’t seem like he creates leaves by magic, as you know he’s a ranger, and rangers don’t use magic. If you ask why his skill and his skill’s name are like that, then ask SG because they are the one who designed it to be that way, not me. And if it were me, I would not give him such skill or skill name.

Gazelle’s dance may be triggered by magic but that doesn’t mean Hanitra’ dance is also magic, because dancing can have different mechanisms, not always have to be magic. Also, Hanitra is a monk and by SG’s definition, monk is not magic, and if you still insist on monk should be magic and added in the Magic Tower event, then you need to create a poll and a lot of people agreeing with you and the most important of all is SG’s decision to include monks in the event.

Still, CKadilen is the only potential candidate to explain the “magical dodging” theory, but the other remaining dodging heroes still cannot support that theory, and she still cannot explain the “dodging in sleep” nonsensical phenomenon.

Earlier in my argument, I use the term “magic” without SG’s magical category in mind. But you misunderstood it as having to be in SG’s magical category. If someone incorrectly understand my intention, I have rights to correct it. If you won’t allow me to use “magic” as it is similar to that SG’s magical class, then call it supernatural effect or buff or whatever. Let me be clear, what I meant by that term is not limited by class.

The class defined by SG is not closed system like that. Even Rogue can use magic, even non-magical class can have magic ability.

Now, explain to me how Inari impart her Lucky Nine to her allies or how Sif use her skill Gold Weaver or how Alice use her skill Timeless Timepiece without any magic involved. Is Frigg use her physical power to do Brittling Force? How do Frosty heal?

Will you also claim barbarian and fighter do not use magic? How do Miki strengthen his allies and silence his opponents? How do Delilah heal?

East Asian know that nine tail fox is magical creature with magic ability:

In East Asian folklore, foxes are depicted as a spirit possessed of magic powers. These foxes are depicted as mischievous, usually tricking other people, with the ability to [disguise themselves as a beautiful woman](Fox spirit - Wikipedia).

Denial of Inari’s magic ability is an insult to East Asian culture.

They are relevant as they prove that there are heroes in what SG believe as non-magical class that actually does magic.

No. I said: “this one is camouflaging” I never said it was magic or camouflaging magic. The sentence should be intepreted as camouflaging instead of magic. When you are camouflaged, you don’t need to stay awake, you can just sleep yet the opponent still miss you.

The moon shield made the dodge, not the hero. Even if the hero is sleep, the moon shield is not. It can also explain for other heroes, the buff make the dodge, not the hero themselves.

So if SG defined that Hanitra buff make the heroes able to dodge while asleep and other’s dodge buff (Inari, Margaret, etc) can make them dodge while asleep then we have to accept it. Period.

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You are making a lot of points but none of them are making sense so far.

SG is the one who created this game in the first place and they decided that there were only 4 classes to be deemed “magic” to be included in the Magic Tower event. That alone is the most important factor to be taken into account concerning which heroes are magic and which are not. There has not been any description so far about which factors other than hero class will determine which heroes are magic so that they can be cursed for a maximum of 5 times in the Magic Tower, not about folklore, not about Asian mythology, not about foxes, not about the moon, or dancing spirit, or any of the points you have mentioned above. What makes you think that your opinions on which heroes are magic prevail to SG’s, the creator of this game, decision on that topic? If you think you can decide which heroes are magic then why don’t you call SG for those heroes that you “claimed” to be magic to be included in the Magic Tower event? Why don’t you make SG do that, and show that you can get SG to agree on your opinions, instead of keeping repeating that your opinions matter more than theirs?

You do know that words can have more than one meaning depending on the context, right?

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Let’s see if SG can agree with you on that.

That the buff enable the heroes to dodge while sleeping. Because it wasn’t the heroes who dodge but the effect of the buff that make the dodge.

Lol, do you know what title SG give to Raffaele? Channeler, a magic user.

Just because someone is not a mathematician, do not mean they doesn’t understand mathematic. Just becase someone’s job is not a medical class, doesn’t mean they don’t have medical ability. Just because someone does not belong to magical class, doesn’t mean they cannot use magic.

It is not up to SG to decide Voodoo is not magic (Marie-Therese) or nine-tailed fox do not have magic ability (Inari). They are magic user, they just don’t belong to SG’s magical class. Does SG ever stated that only magical class can do magic? NO.

Nb: SG already assigned their class even before they had the idea for Magic Tower. It would be inconvenience to change their class or giving exception for some heroes outside magical class.

This part is going off-topic. If you want to continue about this magic nonsense without talking about the sleep, reply to me at the thread for Magic Tower.

You are correct. I already explained to him that I merely used word “magic” because I thought that was suitable word. It has nothing to do with being a magical class at all. I even change it to supernatural effect or simply buff. But he can’t move on and keep tying it with that magical class.

Let’s keep things simple:

  1. CKadilen using magic to dodge: maybe explainable but no official statement of that.
  2. Margaret: skill name “hide in shadow”. She just hides in the shadow, hiding is what rogues do, no magic thing at all.
  3. CLittle John: he camouflages by hiding in leaves, there’s nothing magic in that.
  4. Ninjas: ninjas don’t cast magic. Plain and simple.
  5. Inari: foxes dodging can be explained that foxes are nimble and agile by nature, so they can dodge by using their physical agility. There’s no need to buy into the magical explanation of her dodging, because when there are 2 possible ways to explain a phenomenon, do not complexify things by choosing the more complicated explanation. In real life foxes can run fast and difficult to be hit, just a physical thing, no magic in that. A real-life fox put into sleep can’t dodge. Plain and simple. In case of Inari, she is a fox which has 9 tails, those tails help her better at dodging because the tails divert the attention of the attacker because each tails point to different directions so the attacker cannot determine which direction she is moving so the attacker is more likely to miss. Just a physical thing, nothing magic in that. When she is asleep, she cannot move her tails, therefore losing her ability to dodge. Plain and simple. Do not buy into saying she moves her tails by magic when you can say she moves her tails just by using her tail muscles.
  6. Hanitra: she dodges by dancing, and she dances by using her feet. She can dodge by dancing by using her feet because she’s fast (yes, she’s fast mana speed) and agile. Dancing by feet is a physical thing. Do not say she uses magic to move her feet. Monks do not use magic. Monks do exercises every day to keep their agility and physical resilience (therefore explains their ability to resist negative effect). Keep things plain and simple.

All cases considered, “dodging by magic” is virtually an impossible explanation. Change my mind.

Do not bring up heroes that don’t dodge like Raffael, Marie-Theres etc. in this discussion about “dodging in sleep” because it just shows that you cannot explain the cases of heroes that can dodge so that you have to resort to heroes that are not relevant at all to dilute the focus of the topic, proving that you are out of reasons to substantiate your points.

I said:

Most = not all!!!
Just because I said most buff are magical doesn’t mean all of them are magic. You are generalizing.

As I have said earlier:

Being magical shadow or non-magical shadow doesn’t change the fact that once she enter the shadow, her opponent’s attack can fail to hit even if she is sleeping which is why Balbar’s sleep effect doesn’t matter.

As I have said earlier:

You can sleep less worry when you are camouflaged which is why Balbar’s sleep effect doesn’t matter.

You are inconsistent. You are proving your own theory to be false:

Garnet is a Sorcerer.
Cobalt and Shale are Wizard.

False… false… and false…

You seems to forget that her buff also cause her allies to dodge. Do you think she pull/push her allies to dodge? No, it is the buff as they can still dodge even if Inari got killed. And the dodge is not based on the fox minion as the minion appear after not before the dodge. It is the dodge which summons the minion. The minion also grants mana, how is that physical?

Her dodge is clearly magical in nature which is why Balbar’s sleep effect doesn’t matter.

As I have said earlier, I am not in beta so I don’t have first hand account to necessarily comment on it.

Ehmmm:

My explanation is not merely dodging by magic. It is about dodging by buff, even if the buff is not magic (C.Little Jhon and/or Margareth). The proof is that they can give the dodge to their allies and the dodge still exist as long as the buff exist even if the buffer already die.

Why should I bring them anymore when you had already prove that your magic class theory to be false?

As well as the interaction between dodge and sleep. It’s entirely up to them on how they want to implement it, not on your opinion of how “wrong” it seems. The special will do (or not do) what is written on its card, regardless of arbitrary interpretations on what it “should” do. So why are you still arguing?

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Balbar will become a very disappointing hero when a hero put into sleep by him is stilled allowed to evade or dodge. Use your common sense. No such living sentient thing can voluntarily move itself to evade/dodge an incoming hit under sleep. SG’s plan is just to release a HoTM that seemingly has a nice mechanism, competitive, good, to give you an illusion that it is worth having, but then upon release you will realise just how average, weak, low-key, inferior, unsatisfying, uncompetitive that hero is, then realise that you have wasted money on spending to get them. Just see the pattern they have done to the recent previous HoTMs: Malicna, Yang Mai, Eraldir, Russell. Those were so much anticipated before release but then after, see how underwhelming they are. Some people have also spent their hard-earned 4* mats on those, only for them to be nerfed shortly after. Balbar will become like one of those.

Congrats on another win for SG and another lost to the player base for such a nonsensical, preposterous, anti-common sense, and bullsh*t-ing “dodging in sleep” thing. Thank you all for such a big achievement for the better balance and common sense for the game! Keep sending them more money for chasing HoTMs and receive the well-worth disenchantment, dissatisfaction, and disillusion in return, as it has ever been being since.

Hiding in shadow makes one’s hit harder to hit not because the target dodges the hit, but because it’s more difficult for the attacker to hit the target, so it’s a miss, not dodging. But the game treats that as dodging, which contradicts to your argument. If you want the hit to miss the target while the target is hiding in shadow but is put to sleep, then Margaret’s skill description should be: “the caster and nearby allies hide in shadow, which makes special skills hitting them have a chance to miss”, NOT the current description “the caster and nearby allies have a chance to dodge special skills”. The “hiding in shadow” mechanism is a viable thing, because SG has already done that to Russula, or in some extent, to Morris as well. You can either accept that the target cannot dodge under Magaret’s buff while being sleep, or change Magaret’s skill decription, you cannot go both way. The same mechanism is explained to CLittle John.

Do not buy into such nonsense. Use your common sense. Even though their classes can be magic, do you think they dodge by moving their feet by using their feet muscles and agility, or using magic to move their feet? Ninjas are very well-known for their agility and nimbleness, not by casting magic. Some fact check for you Ninja - Wikipedia. There are only very few references about them using magic, and those are even outnumbered by references about them doing just normal physical stuffs. There is no such mention about them using “magic to dodge” either. There is a reference about their ability to “split into multiple bodies”, but that would cause an attacker to miss them for hitting an image of them not their real body, not because they dodge the hit. If that is the case, then just return to Magaret’s “hiding in shadow” mechanism above. Even if that mechanism is applied, how can you “split into multiple bodies” while being asleep to begin with? How can you even do such a complex technique while sleeping, when all you can do while sleeping is snoring and breathing?

Not plausible. What kind of magic that can make foxes dodging if not by moving their feet by moving their feet muscles and distracting the attacker by moving their many tails by moving their tail muscles? If you cannot fully explain something, do not buy into it. Some fact check for you Fox spirit - Wikipedia. Even though there is a reference about nine-tailed foxes being able to “use magic to shapeshift themselves to disguise as beautiful women to trick people”, there is no such reference about them using magic to dodge either. Even when they have used magic to shapeshift into beautiful women, beautiful women still cannot dodge while being put into sleep either. Prove me otherwise.

I know discussing about Raffael, Marie-Theres would be off-topic for now but I will prove they are not magic, just to show you magic heroes are not abundant in the game as you think

  1. Raffaele: it is very difficult to discuss about him because he has no real-life counterpart to find reference about who he might be and what he could do, so the best thing that can be done is from pure observation about his appearance, his skill’s name and description, and that might be subjected to subjectivity. His skill’s name: ice treatment, does healing. It looks like it’s reasonable to see him as a medic, you know when there are severe injuries from a collusion between footballers in a football match, a medic team will arrive and spray a frozen, icy mist on the injuries of the players, because cold temperature has been proven to reduce pain from injuries, therefore aiding the healing of the injuries, at least in first-aid context. So there doesn’t need to be anything magic about him, just a medic doing his healing stuff. Then why is he a monk and blue? looking at his card’s background it looks like he lives in a frigid area, a monk like him practices exercises regularly in cold climate in order to keep his physical resilience, therefore explaining his ability to resist negative effect, particularly his passive ability helping him to resist attack reduction because from constant exercising under frigid condition he has developed the immunity to coldness which can lower your strength to deliver damage.
  2. Marie-Theres. She’s a zombie, so this is her real-life reference Zombie - Wikipedia. Here I quote:

The term (zombie) comes from Haitian folklore, in which a zombie is a dead body reanimated through various methods, most commonly magic like voodoo. Modern media depictions of the reanimation of the dead often do not involve magic but rather science fictional methods such as carriers, radiation, mental diseases, vectors, pathogens, parasites, scientific accidents, etc.

Most people know zombie from modern media, not from Haitian folklore, so it’s understandable that SG decided not to give her one of the 4 “magical classes”. Also, being a monk means she practices exercises daily to improve her endurance and physical resilience, but because she’s a zombie, not a human so her physical endurance and resilience are not manifested as usual as human but as her ability to revive after dead, because that’s just what a zombie is and what a zombie can do: undead, reviving. That may seem supernatural or magical to human but to zombies, that’s just natural and normal because that, by nature, is what they can naturally do. That may sound bizarre and inconsequential but humans are different from zombies so that may be unnatural to us but just a mundane thing to them. And I’m not a zombie specialist, I just think not all zombies are magic and reviving is just their normal thing, doesn’t take a magic for them to be able to revive after dead.

My bottom line: stop using the “magic” narration, start using “common sense” instead.

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LOL at this “magic hero” debate. WTF are you guys arguing about? I GUARANTEE YOU that SG does not put a quarter of the thought into this that you two are. They just said hey we need 4 classes we deem magic for this tower event. Bang, bang, bang, bang. Good? Great.

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Doesn’t that means the game contradict their own skill name? It is hiding, not dodging but they treat it as dodge. This is not the first time SG is inconsistent.

How is dispel able to remove the shadow? Because that is not a normal shadow. This is a fantasy game, most of the skill or buff are magical and doesn’t make sense in real world.

If you keep using real-world logic, you won’t be able to accept thag Balbar’s sleep ailment won’t remove the dodge.

So now you also do not but to SG nonsense that the magical class is? Magical class are flawed to begin with. Some heroes who deserve to be magical got left behind while some who do not deserve got included.

Do you think the family bonus make sense? How come more ninja means more agility? The space will get cramped and will be harder to dodge.

How come she can make her allies dodge even after she die if not by magical buff?

If you keep avoiding to explain that, then just stop talking.

SG said he is a channeler. Channeler is magic user. Period.

SG said she is a Voodoo Queen. Voodoo is magic. Period.

If you want common sense, don’t play fantasy games.

It is the buff that made the dodge, not their consciousness. That is why sleep from Balbar won’t prevent them from dodging.

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In short @HughMickey1492 cannot understand that Balbar’s sleep ailment do not prevent heroes from dodging. I said it over and over that the dodge is caused by the buff. I said the buff is similar to magical effect but then @HughMickey1492 start arguing that they can’t use magic as SG do not put them in MT magic class.

Above argument is clearly going nowhere for days already. The game can do whatever it wants to its mechanics. (Like how they complete destroyed their double formations). If a splash hitter can no longer target all 5 heroes in a double formation, I don’t see why a sleeping enemy shouldn’t dodge while asleep

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