🧪 Early Information on the February 2020 HOTM (Jean-François)

[robin102]

@Sid1207

Some people also convinced me that Grazul is a game changer because of same v fast speed and don’t have to be afraid of Kunchen tanks anymore. Some even claimed she’d be a top tier tank paired with right flank. Don’t think anyone holds that opinion anymore.

I didn’t chase Grazul but somehow she landed my roster. As ppl pointed out, she is very bad on defense. I bring her in every raid in 311, her role is to protect the team and she does really well, worth to mention that the sniper usually target her and she is still alive. Not a gamer changer to me but a great supporter in offense. And it’s true that I don’t worry GM or Kuchen any more

[Elpis]

Grazul is TOTALLY a game changer.
Even more against the upcoming Telluria and Jean.

I use her much more then Hel and she is an excelent flanker for Guinevre and the same Telluria in defence.

[robin102]

@robin102

What an endless argument. I think we need to be on the same page by converting the DoT to direct damage. JF is somewhat unique who does DoT only to all enemies.

Things need to taken into account:

• Direct damage has more threaten than DoT
• DoT take time and has durability
• DoT can be counter by cleaners and healers who are common
• DoT bypass def, counter attack

To form a formula like Converted Direct Damage = x * DoT damage.

• x < 1 as it’s obviously direct damage is preferred than DoT
• x depends on DoT durability, the more turns the smaller x and vice versa
• At 1 turn, x = 1

Imo about JF v2:
X = 0.6 on defense
X = 0.9 on offense
Make him avg X = 0.75
So the effective damage of his DoT be 0.75*304= 228 at fast speed.

[RayZeus]

I’m happy that JF was adjusted, because I think he was quite broken before. However, I think the way he was adjusted made him, as others have suggested, still very strong on offense, but a bit less on defense.

Given that no hero has come close to GM on defense in almost 2 years, I would see it as a waste to see JF not offer more competition to GM for the Crown on defense, and would suggest that he be rebalanced in a different way to achieve that.

If it were my call, I’d like to see JF have the following changes:

-Burn over 3 turns, for 453 damage total
AND
-Elemental resistance reduced from 94% down to 54%
OR
-Defense down replacement by a defense buff to only apply to non-elemental defense down

In my opinion, this would help make JF less overpowered, while still allowing him to compete with GM on defense.

[yelnats_24]

@Sid1207

People in beta threads convinced Margaret is a game changer

@Sid1207

Some people also convinced me that Grazul is a game changer

Some people are just outlier. I am not in beta but just by reading their card I know they are not good enough…

General consensus is the average, there will always be someone who differ much from it and claim game-changer or useless.

@Sid1207

and then people also convinced me that Neith is terrifying on defense because she silences heroes for one round and blinds.

Before nerf.

[Sternman]

I am a bit surprised you chose that comment to show that forum was enamored with Margaret.

@Sternman

I can see how she helps teams stay alive but having a harder time seeing how she kills. Good tile damage for when you are initiating the attack but slash damage doesn’t have the upside from cascades.

I like her special but prefer the likes of Hel/Proteus with the mana control (albeit at a slower speed) or the defense down heroes if I had to choose.

@Sternman

Since Guin tends to die by tiles Margaret doesn’t help her tremendously which was probably intentional to keep game balance.

I find Margaret intriguing rather than a must have. Her role seems fairly clear, flank that improves the tank and protects the wing (so a slow, squishy, deadly wing is now viable again (Isarnia we’re looking at you).

I never pulled Margaret but having faced her in raids my concerns were proved correct: She was to be a flank that protects the tank and wing BUT the tank dies by tiles, not specials so she doesn’t protect the tank, wing doesn’t matter so much once you have the gap for ghosting tiles. She doesn’t do damage except slash and that isn’t enough.

She does have excellent tile damage for titans…perhaps offensive raids. Dunno.

I wish that I had pulled Grazul, I really wanted her, and still think she is excellent.

General comment on JF:
I have GM and yet can see how JF would add value to my roster since they don’t do exactly the same thing. I would just NEVER run them on the same team because they overwrite one another but I feel that JF’s defense debuff flip will be very helpful on offensive raids, especially vs. Kunchen tanks.

I believe a case can be made for him on defense as well, I personally wouldn’t expect to put him on my defense because I have other heroes which I prefer due to the fact that I won’t be able to emblem him for at least another year (Proteus +20 keeps his emblems, Hel +3 gets more, Proteus +5 will go to +20 as well).

[Sid1207]

@robin102

I didn’t chase Grazul but somehow she landed my roster. As ppl pointed out, she is very bad on defense. I bring her in every raid in 311, her role is to protect the team and she does really well, worth to mention that the sniper usually target her and she is still alive. Not a gamer changer to me but a great supporter in offense. And it’s true that I don’t worry GM or Kuchen any more

I didn’t chase her either and got one of her. But agreed, she’s not a game changer but a really nice support hero. But since I don’t try to play defensively often, I don’t think she gets enough moments to shine

@yelnats_24

Before nerf.

Well there were certain arguments post-nerf as well as to how she’s perfectly balanced, and still a good hero. I made a judgement error back then and thought she was still a good hero post-nerf. Now I think 2nd Joon or Musa is better than Neith. Have to get feedback to see if she’s better than Leo or not. I’m going off tangent, but main thing I’m trying to say is I’m not really great at reading cards and am better with hands-on experience. And hope that’s not the case that happens with JF where he becomes a mediocre hero post-beta

@Sternman

I am a bit surprised you chose that comment to show that forum was enamored with Margaret.

Sorry! Didn’t mean to target you but for some reason your analysis (along with few others) resonated with me at that time. Not saying it was a bad analysis, but some of those posts sold me on Margaret more than they should have. I wasn’t able to chase Margaret because of personal reasons, but thank God I didn’t.
At that time, I thought Marg flanks would become rampant and start replacing some Nature defensive powerhouses like Zeline/Alby/MN etc. However first few times I met her in raids, she didn’t impress me at all. I was in fact ok with dumping tiles in her when I didn’t have good boards. I pulled same prank on Inari and found out that Inari is slightly more punishing. But overall I think game has better defensive heroes.
Also I don’t think she’ll ever make it to mono nature Titan team, because I lucked out in some nature heroes and some of the other 4* provide more utility than her

[bobiscool]

@Sid1207

I’m going off tangent, but main thing I’m trying to say is I’m not really great at reading cards and am better with hands-on experience. And hope that’s not the case that happens with JF where he becomes a mediocre hero post-beta

Honestly this is my biggest worry as well. With 0 direct dmg, it’s kind of hard to know just how valuable JF really is. The point isn’t wanting a super OP HoTM, but it would be sad if his skills are overvalued now and turn out to be really mediocre.

Of course it’s best if it’s possible to have it exactly as good as insert hero here. But given that it’s really hard to tell, I fell like it would be better to err on the side of being slightly OP than completely average.

[Sternman]

Cheers, I didn’t feel badly but thought it didn’t make your case quite the way you were hoping. It was a relief to read a post of mine that wasn’t proved complete rubbish once the hero was released. I am flattered that it resonated with you.

Let’s see what we think of JF when he is finally released. I’d love it if beta had another build to test. As is, I would be very happy to have v2 in my team and he would get rings over my current fire 5* options.

[JAWS_3D]

For all you people who like to geek out on character names, I came across a cool passage last night in a book I was reading. It’s not an exact name match but it’s still fun to consider:

“In 1836, champagne took another leap forward when a pharmacist, Jean-Baptiste Francois, created a simple device - called a sucre-oenometre - that enabled producers to measure the amount of sugar in their wines. Since the bubbles in sparkling wine were still the result of unfinished primary fermentation, the device helped winemakers better predict whether the sugar they added would produce more pressure than bottles could withstand. This greatly reduced the loss of wine. Prior to Francois’ invention, champagne producers regularly lost 30 percent or more of their wines to bottle breakage.”

Pharmacists are probably most comparable to the wizard class and it’s pretty fitting that he carries a sabre in case any champagne bottles need to be opened!

[bobiscool]

we should add a “drunk” ability to JF;

-Makes opponents more aggressive (+50% attack)
-Puts opponent in drunken stupor (-50% accuracy)

[dreampro]

I already said. “It’s easier to dispelled than GM.”
If direct attack may be close to your claim. But It’s DOT damage.

Suppose Avg Cleanser.
GM : special1, special2, special3(Dispelled), special4, special5, special6(Dispelled)
JF : special1, special2(Dispelled), special3, special4(Dispelled), special5, special6(Dispelled)

Does your math formula say JF is still better than GM again?

[yelnats_24]

You seems to forget that JF hit 5 instead of 3. When tank is busted, JF hit 4 instead of 2.

JF have more in his arsenal than damage, he have elemental defense buff and regular defense debuff converter (not only he give immunity to defense debuff but turn it into buff). Both have useful elemental link, the other thing in GM arsenal is extra damage against nature (40% @Red_Sun thanks for the correction).

[Red_Sun]

Extra elemental damage is 40%.

[Red_Sun]

You’re welcome.

20 characters

[Punch]

If we are talking about number of turns, in my experience against GM, immediately after his burn dot if not cleansed, 1 or 2 of my heroes are dead. Not that GM killed them, his teammates did. Don’t discount the fact that JF will probably have snipers with him, worse, AOE superpower like ursena.

In this scenario, if ursena fires, burn dot will probably eat away heroes health up to the point that slash damage alone will kill my heroes. Unless of course if we have a fast healer and cleanser at the same time but we have none. Not grazul of course since she is not a cleanser and she is not a classic hero.

The charging period before JF fires 2nd SS will buy sufficient time to charge vivica at least for her 1st cleanse and heal whatever health is left or if there are still heroes to be healed. But it is highly unlikely that the board will give yellow combinations at every turn. This is my own simplest reason why the nerf is just right.

Now, i am not in beta so these are just “probably” and “what ifs”. Hopefully, someone in beta would prove me right or wrong with their own experiences defending against JF and just using classic healers/cleansers. Relying on numbers are just not enough at this point already since JF has already been tested in beta twice if im not mistaken. Actual gameplay with actual combinations of heroes in a team should be the yardstick on whether JF v2 is balanced or not.

[dreampro]

It’s an argument against the calculation that the nerfed JF is still superior to GM.
That calculation already takes into account the part about targeting.
But the characters are not scarecrows.
No part of cleansing is being considered.

Early Information on the February 2020 HOTM (Jean-François)

I’ll retype my reasons as to why JF & GM are comparable (ish) Direct Comparison [image] As you can see, JF not only has 2 additional supplementary components to his Special Skill but his DoT is across 5 enemies. This has a massive benefit in that REGARDLESS of how many enemies are on the field, he will STILL burn them all… When one or two heroes are missing, GM can no longer necessarily do the full extent of his special… Damage Comparison This maths uses the following formula: [Damage] = 1…

[yelnats_24]

@dreampro

It’s an argument against the calculation that the nerfed JF is still superior to GM.

@dreampro

Does your math formula say JF is still better than GM again?

Whether JF is better than GM cannot be solved by math regarding damage alone, GM is more offensive while JF is hybrid.

[dreampro]

Guvnor’s formula says that JF still has similar damage to GM, but I think the nerfed JF’s damage is less than GM because of the possibility of cleansing at mana speed.

Yes. He is hybrid. And Neith is hybrid too.

[Sid1207]

@dreampro

He is hybrid. And Neith is hybrid too.

God i just imagined a line of Prius like HotMs