New meta team - King - Jean - ursena - drake - Finley ā¦ sounds fun right? Not only can you no longer take strong color vs tank, or hotm / buffs vs Finley, or burn vs green, but your defense debuffers that you need, in order to deal with no strong tank color, is negated by Jeanā¦ oh and Iām blind and on fire, sweet. Better get your mono teams ready folks, cause if you donāt win in your first few moves, itās over.
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Empire & Monocolors Ā®
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Ariel (for cleansing), Mitsuko (for Finleying), three purples (including Kage and Seshat for dispelling) and pray for a good board (because Ursena WILL fire). 
Yikes.
Iām not sure that I fully agree with this sentiment. Youāre assuming that both flanks would fire simultaneously, which Iām not sure is particularly common relative to them firing a few turns apart. If the tiles do not fall nearly perfectly evenly distributed on either side of the tank, the Jeans will be staggered and fire separately. This would then require double the cleanses, or require you to eat a few turns of burn while purposely trying to charge the other Jean before cleansing because you simply cannot afford to eat 3+ turns of burn.
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A mono team of triple JF, a GM and Grazul looks formidable.
I kinda hope he gets released as is so we have plenty to quote in this thread when the complaints come pouring in lol
Think āfor anyone that has this 1 hero, heās not a threatā is probably the funniest analysis Iāve heard in this whole thread
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Again, please dispense with the notion that defenders are to be judged based on how they fare vs offenses who are getting the tiles required to function exactly as the attacker intended. If anyone reading this thread is actually losing attacks when your heroes are firing exactly as you had in mind when building the team, you are doing it wrong. Reach out to me (Line ID: Jrigs) any time day or night with questions about strategy, team building, tile work, ādoes this look infectedā, etc for assistanceā¦
Also, if youāre going into attacks banking on charging your Kunchen in time to cleanse Jean, good luck.
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And you would base them on what? The worst boards? Then every hero needs to be nerfed. You are simply ignoring the rest of the discussion and focusing on the point that is absolutely invalid in terms of judging hero performances.
I do appreciate your suggestion on team building etcā¦ and will hit you up line for sure to have some live discussions as the forum takes out the humane parts of the discussion 
but you first need to know I have nearly every hero in the game since release and most of them are fully leveled, I test my heroes regardless of their strength and the community behind titan mafia etcā¦ who are actually doing the proper analysis know very well how I conduct my analysis of heroes, and mind you when you shift your +15 emblemed wizard 3 times in a week to test out how a hero performs is when you can actually judge a hero and not based in some theoretical booo hooo which already slaughetered some decent heroes.
As for @Rigs if you do not judge a hero by using a counter hero so how are you supposed to judge him? We take a team of Aifes and attack and make rational decisions? I mean the game clearly is moving to a rock-paper-scissors type with the release of Grimble and some other niche heroes and if we do not adjust our viewpoint as players towards the way the game is evolving then we will have a lot of tears (just look at Telluria thread in about a month from now)
Now yet again let me repeat myself, JF is strong, he is going to make the offensive meta, is he overpowered? No, because there are ways to deal with him and shut him off completley. Does he need to be tuned? Yes, because he brings to much UTILITY on top of damage. So nerf his utility to balance out the damage output because his damage is already tied into the worst damage dealing application which is DoTs (compare the amount of good snipers vs DoT heroes before commenting and look at the utilization of DoT heroes in top 100 defenses for your anwser)
At the end, for me personally, the decision on JF wont matter much, if they nerf them into the ground I got other heroes to play with and will still have some strong contenders coming up, the issue will be that the backlash, if they release another Neith type of nerfed hero, will be significant and we will go into places we do not want to go due to the same approach that was used with Neith and the same nerfs that are being asked with JF and which will be surely asked for Telluria (in fact I am sure that thread will explode soon).
I will be withdrawing from this discussion as I have said what I need to say and the rest is simply arguing and beating on a dead horse I hope they will release a proper hero after the debacle of Neith and good luck to you with future pulls
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Not to mention Kunchenās special (def debuff) would just flip to buff against JF. Hilarious how people still dont get thisā¦
Judge a hero based on the average or lower scenarios
Judging a hero based on āi took the #1 counter hero against him, got 6 reds in my opening board, fired her and prevented jf burn so he canāt possibly be overpoweredā makes 0 sense
About as bad as saying āguin is a bad tank, i just mono dark, get 3 tiles in the middle and she dies, idk what the big deal isā lol which i do hear all the time but typically noobs so i blow it off
But i know youāve been playing awhile so this analysis that as long as a you have a good board and your heroes fire then there can be no op heroes is a bit of a surprise
Fear of backlash is no reason to release OP heroes
Players get mad about every little thing then they get over it when they find somethin else to get mad about. From what i can tell, the ones ticked off about neith also donāt have Guin or Drake, so part of the fit throwing is hoping they would have a competitive substitute and they donāt, doesnāt make her underpowered.
If devs tiptoed around mad players, this game would have died 2 yrs ago
Besides that how many people have 6 maxed grazuls and/or zimkithas laying around?
Compare the time theyāve been available to the time the game has existed then calc in the time it would take to get 36 rings tomes & dblades, i would say not many
Which means in wars Rigard would be a common bringalong vs JF
Rigard is average mana, purple, 4* so non costumed non emblemed has low chance of survival until JF fires and even if he does fire itās pretty late for a recoop since itāll take twice as many turns to load rigard as it will JF
Could say vivica being pretty common but 5* so less likely to have multiple maxed
Take into account the other synergies jf can have, zeline, drake, etc(any 5* fast mana hit 3+ flanking jf will just make the rigard recoop that less likely)
Itās average to run into a good paywall hero 6 times in a war(jf)
Itās not average to have the same paywall 5* maxed 6 times(grazul,zim)
There is nothing data worthy about raids when it comes to hero discussion, always boils down to wars due to limited team compositions(not even mentioning arrows or field aid which would be solid contributors to even further back the jf is too strong analysis)
If we want to talk average scenarios, letās talk average scenarios
Ideal scenarios are crap and have a very slim chance happening on a regular basis
We get it, youāve bought 6 maxed grazuls and/or 6 maxed zims but i would put money that isnāt the case for 99.9% of the playerbase
Donāt want him busted down to nothing
Honestly if they just made him average mana(which they rightfully should have done based on gm, azlar, marjana, natalya, etc) we wouldnāt even have this discussion or debate
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I repeat
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Even tough I said I will retire from this topic will just reply because of the respect I have for you big guy
Think you miss understood the point, its not about judging heroes with good boards, eventough we all at the top know its 80% a board game vs any hero you put up to, its about having a normal board where you are not spawned with 2 good shields or a diamond chance at the start. Even out the RNG game and then judge the defensive hero because you will lose in 80% of the time with a very crappy board and win 80% of the with a damn good board so those are useless to judge upon. In the end the board should be a non effective judgment otherwise either all heroes are bad or good. Now the point is that, in my opinion, we cannot judge anymore the heroes without counters because you will get blown out of the water in majority of cases (dont bring Grimble or a good AOE hero to a summoners build and its gg bye bye) so we need to evolve the judgement of heroes based on the understanding that the game is moving towards meta comps that require clear cut counters to work. The more we dent this the more it will be painful once the reality kicks in.
Now we should all focus on what matters with JF and that is his utility, like Airhawk clearly stated he is overloaded with utility and needs to be cut there. Neith was the same issue, people focused on her damage part sayin āOMG she blinds and mana cuts what ever damage you put she is OPā they ignored the fact that the modifiers were to low on those and you could recover instantly while being tickled bu her damage. Stop focusing on JF damage output and focus on removing his overbloated utility to make him an acceptable hero. Over and out
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Agreed about the utility, actually think the very first thing i mentioned was +94% defense buff vs ice, what the fā¦ considering the last hero i recall with a similar buff being guin and sheās just now getting to the point where players find her tolerable, no one wants another guin. Kong has +94% defense vs ice for all too but thatās all he has besides his raw damage so can live with that one. Basically heroes that have 1 reallly good abiltiy is ok but heroes that have multiple really good abilities is typically too far. Multiple part hero specials need 1 good part and the others mediocre or even situational, if all parts of a multiple part special skill too good itās OP(if neith blinded as much as justice at the speed of drake with the mana cut of guin for example)
That being said his raw damage is still too high in the meta of average/slow cleansers
If theyāre intent is to move the paywall goal posts another 100 yds out of reach for c2p/f2p then theyāre doin a fine job with this hero
But i donāt want to think that is the intent
Iād like to think heroes of this nature happen cause somebody at a desk that doesnt even play the game is pulling hero designs out of his a** to meet some kind of quota layed out by his boss
That being said:
Remove the ice buff
Suscpetible to elemental d downs
Average mana
Thatās still a hero i would personally find useful on offense without being a nightmare on defense. Would keep him in reach of dispellers & cleansers, useful on offense with his buff+dot and keepin him a step ahead of kunch/costumed vivica. Zim in defense could be an issue for him but if that encourages some to think zim over gm for defense(wouldnāt advise btw), then itās progress in my opinion
But Iām just 1 player so the āthis is what I thinkā is pretty irrelevant
Anyways work time, bbl
Respect you as well for what itās worth, Iām pretty blunt so no surprise it can come off that i lack respect for someone based on a disagreement(though there are some that the disagreement was so black & white that i really could no longer respect them)
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Seeing as comments trying to compare him to what happened with Neith and given I was probably the most vocal campaigner to get Neith a buff pre-release and received much flack for it at the time I just want to repost this I posted near the bottom of one of my previous overly long proclamationā¦
Having used him I can definitely say heās OP and have laid out the reasons in previous posts in this thread.
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I hope that if they are keeping JF the same that telleria stays the same as well. Cause seeing that potential train wreck unfold would be quite the spectacle. Also Iām curious what the other HOTM will look like if this is just month 2 and 3 
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Like @MysterySpin, I was a staunch critic of Neithās state after the aggressive nerf of her second beta, which landed at the release of a mediocre hero in November. Honestly, I am absolutely against releasing mediocre or just useful HOTMs. HOTMs are often the most āaffordableā for average players to upgrade their squad. They need not be superb, amazing or overpower, they can simply be good and versatile. If they are niche, at least in that niche they make a difference, like Miki and Grimble.
That said, I see JF and Telluria as a whole new class of heroes, āĆber heroesā, significantly superior to our well-known and beloved overpowers. If we want balance between players, these two need to be readjusted. For the advantage of those who will have them, over those who will not have them, may become insurmountable.
Legitimate is also the fear that nerf will render JF useless. We have seen this in the game more than once. Therefore change must be judicious. For this heroās only form of damage is DOT, which can easily be bypassed, as weāve learned a lot from such heroes, GM at the top. I totally agree with @Anetho JF is born with well-developed counters and they are as important in the analysis of their viability as the heroes with whom he can have synergy. Therefore the nerf need not be drastic.
If we change its mana speed to average, and do not focus on other characteristics, it will remain excellent and not overpowered. The same is true if it continues fast, but we lower the DOT to 480 and the ice defense to + 56%. He will remain a good and versatile hero.
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Probably just a coincidence Iām sure but, Jean during Avalon month and Telluria in Pirates (Finley) monthā¦ must need a nice first quarter. Also, Neith isnāt a bad hero and is quite serviceableā¦ why are we still acting like sheās the poster child for bad nerfsā¦ if she did an extra 50 damage per hero would she suddenly turn into a far more useful hero? Sheās a support hero, she does well at that. Letās let that horse die in peace already and stop kicking it.
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I think a lot of people disagree with you, so she became an example of how not to make a nerf. But opinion is something very particular, respecting yours. I also find it useful, but thatās all. Well below expectations for a HOTM. 
Probably your theory is correct, maybe they need a spectacular first quarter, but they weighed in on JF and Telluria. 
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Yeah I like Neith, she could use a bump in damage (imo) but I agree that it wonāt change her main appeal. For me thatās the blind-all at average speed ā definitely a gamble to bank on your opponent missing but thatās what makes blind fun to play with (for me anyways ā I donāt mind the risk).
But to get back on track, I donāt think Iāve ever seen so much feedback for a future HOTM in my almost 2years of playing and browsing forums haha 
Few are still happy with the way he is currently ā or at least fewer have posted stating theyāre happy with him compared to the amount that have stated he needs an adjustment.
Iāve seen great suggestions here on how he could be adjusted and still stay as a solid hero too. Iām excited to see how he comes back in Beta, along with Telluriaā¦ Iām guessing because of holidays, that wonāt be until late December / early January.
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Guess it just depends on your expectations for a HOTM then, as I truly donāt see how a small damage buff to her would somehow make her far more useful. Iāve spoke with players of all levels, top dogs (CP) and everyone in between regarding Neith, and the ones that have maxed her and are using her seem to find value in what she does. Players that have a guin or drake arenāt as fond, because they wanted something different, I get that, but I think players are coming around to finding her value and Iām starting to see her in more defenses. Anyway, we can get back to Jean, there is enough comments about Neith in this thread as is.
Maybe Iām alone in this but I donāt personally want every HOTM to be a āmust haveā type of hero, my wallet appreciates months I can skip because I have overlapping abilities haha.
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