šŸ§Ŗ Early Information on the February 2020 HOTM (Jean-FranƧois)

Why ppl make thing complicated by adding more condition especially best case?
Btw if you like that way, mind to add GMā€™s stats?

Good grief. My brain is doing its best to mash together a cohesive sentence out of that, but Iā€™m not sure what youā€™re trying to convey. Can you rephrase?

2 Likes

@Rigs Iā€™m pretty sure youā€™re being trolled, and recommend you stop engaging and escalating. Nobody could sincerely be that petty, jealous, and shortsighted and simultaneously lack the self-awareness to realize that when youā€™re publicly attempting to justify giving in to base instincts at the expense of others youā€™re not supposed to say the quiet part out loud

5 Likes

I only care about the number 604 over 4 turns. The term Over Power means relatively much stronger than other heros. Other hero cannot be put emblems? Can not use troop? Can not be put in defense? So why mind to add extra stats with those conditions?

We are living in the world of GM. Does JF make our life more difficult? No to me but the opposite. So I will welcome him as it.

2 Likes

Because everybody equips a troop, so it is valid to include the damage of having a troop equipped. Yes, not everybody has a maxed troop but maxed is given as an example and even a level 1 mana troop gives +17% attack, so unless youā€™re implying that it is commonplace for people to not equip a troop at all to their offense or defense, why is it irrelevant to show what equipping a troop does to his damage output , particularly since DoT is the one form of damage not affected by any troops or stats of the opponent whatsoever?

1 Like

I still think the DoT amount should be reduced, as Iā€™ve said before, but my point was that the premise of each of his effects isnā€™t unreasonable.

And again, the lack of any changes in Beta so far makes me think that the game designers are happy with him as-is.

So mostly Iā€™ve just come to accept theyā€™re probably not going to change him.


Letā€™s compare Gravemaker, to see what a reasonable nerf would be, following the format @Argon used.

727 base attack stat, which goes up to 853 by +18, which is a 17.3% increase, so:

298 burn damage over 2 turns -> 349 burn damage over 4 turns

Equip max level mana troops and he will deal 26% more:

349 burn damage over 2 turns -> 439 burn damage over 4 turns

Place him on defense and he will deal even more:

439 burn damage over 4 turns -> 526 burn damage over 4 turns

JF hits all enemies, and GM hits 3.

Based on that, so far weā€™re at 5,380 burn damage over 4 turns at Fast vs. 1,578 burn damage over 2 turns at Very Fast.

Letā€™s see how much of that 3800 difference GMā€™s hit makes up for.


GMā€™s attack stat of 727 rises to 1289 on Defense with a max level Mana Troop and +18 Talent Grid.

As of June, the last time @Garanwyn calculated it, the average Defense stat blended from 4* and 5* was 679. Iā€™m assuming thatā€™s fair to use because Iā€™m thinking about how this plays out in War, where many players use lots of 4* in the mix. Iā€™m 17.5 months into playing, and have 13 maxed 5*, so I still use lots of 4*.

Letā€™s assume we can bump that up by 75 for Talent Grid upgrades ā€” presuming emphasizing Defense a little over half the time. That brings us to 754.

The original ā€œworst caseā€ for JF assumes heā€™s paired with a spenderā€™s Level 30 Mana Troop.

The average of my highest level Troops is currently 14.2. So Iā€™m going to use the 21% Defense increase from a Level 15 Crit Troop for my calculations as an average attacker ā€” noting that in a color stacking team, itā€™s actually going to be a lot less on some heroes. I donā€™t think itā€™s fair to use maxed Troops, because I think thatā€™s unrealistic for most attackers, especially across color stacking teams ā€” and even spenders who have that are probably investing in Mana Troops, which cap out at 18% Defense at Level 30.

With a 21% boost to Defense, weā€™re at 912.

Breaking out the damage calculation formula, we have:

100 * (135% * 1289 Attack / 912 Defense) ^ 1.35 = 239

Multiplied by 3 targets, thatā€™s 717 damage.


So weā€™re something like 3100 damage ahead with JF, with the caveats of Fast vs. Very Fast, 4 turns vs. 2 turns, no extra damage against Nature accounted for, and assuming Level 15 Crit Troops on every attacking hero (which I think is pretty generous on the Troops).

I think those qualifications are worth some credit, so perhaps weā€™d want to lower the total DoT for JF by around 2000, i.e. 400 per target.


Since we arrived at these numbers presuming JF on Defense, with a Level 30 Mana Troop, and maxed Talent Grid, we have to unwind those multipliers to figure out how much the base DoT would need to decrease to achieve the desired 400 point reduction vs. the 1076 weā€™re at.

Since 400 is 37% of 1076, presumably weā€™d want to reduce the base DoT by 37%, which would be 223 points.

That would mean reducing JFā€™s base DoT from 604 to 380.


On the premise that I can walk myself through that being in the ballpark of Gravemaker, somewhere around that would probably be a reasonable nerf.

14 Likes

Heck, I think we are in the same ballpark just using very different phraseology. 400 was my initial recommendation in this thread (though I could probably be convinced that anywhere as high as 450 is within the realm of reason). 380 probably works out in total numerically, but there is a premium on having the damage concentrated on less targets, so aggregate damage for a hit-5 SHOULD be higher than a hit-3 So I donā€™t know that Iā€™d advocate for evening them out completely.

6 Likes

Itā€™s also very hard to compare DoT to direct damage, as you have to make a lot of assumptions to fill in the damage calculation formula, whereas DoT isnā€™t modified ā€” plus you have to decide how you value all sorts of other things, like dispel, Rogues, Monks, ailment immunity, Taunt, Flesh Wound, etc. etc.

So it could certainly be reasonable to use a higher number like 400 or 450.

Thatā€™s kind of in keeping with my earlier point that Iā€™ve come to accept the current 604 as probably just being where theyā€™re heading with heroes these days.

Itā€™s demonstrably stronger than Gravemaker, but thatā€™s probably their intention.

Iā€™d support some amount of nerf, but I donā€™t think itā€™s like an astronomical amount. Weā€™re talking about maybe something like a 25-30% cut in the DoT amount, and probably leaving him alone otherwise.

3 Likes

400-450 if theyā€™re going to leave the rest of the card intact sounds correct. 450 would still leave him slightly better than Gravy, but there would still be a lot of debate either way. 400 is about the power level Iā€™d like, personally, as Iā€™d very much so like heroes that dominate the meta to not be a thing. If we collectively already do not care for the lack of variety when raiding defenses where an outsized percentage are all running the same hero, releasing a few more heroes on par with that one will make defenses MORE homogenous from top to bottom of of the top 100 alliance defenses, not less. Sure, if balanced perfectly youā€™ll see a mix of Jean and GM in top alliances, but near the top, middle, and bottom of the top 100 doubling the availability of dominant heroes will serve only to extend the monotonous defenses deeper into the playerbase. If not balanced correctly and Jean releases as strong as written, Jean will just replace GM, and the same monotony will still exist except now with an even more dominant red counterpart to contend with the gap will widen even further between the haves and the have nots.

4 Likes

I agree with your premise, and weā€™re on the same page about the rough number for the DoT ā€” though Iā€™m more skeptical itā€™ll be changed.


One place where Iā€™d disagree a little bit is that the monotony will probably shift slightly, rather than stay the same with a straight swap from GM to JF.

Right now I see a lot of blue tank teams with GM in flank to punish stacking green against the tank. That wonā€™t make as much sense for JF swapping in for GM because of the lack of extra damage against green ā€” itā€™d make more sense to use both GM and JF to bait blues against JFā€™s ice defense while doubly punishing a green stack for being weak and taking extra damage; or perhaps to use both JF and Mitsuko to doubly punish blues while also leaving green as a weak option. Either would leave an attacker with few choices for a stack theyā€™ll be happy with.

Either way, Iā€™d expect to see some new defense configurationsā€¦and then see them repeated over and over, just like now.

I think that eventual monotony is sort of a given for the current business model. Unless they manage to add only new heroes that are all equally desirable for Defense, and thus motivate a lot of variety, weā€™ll always see lots of the same setups from the people who spend enough to get whichever heroes they want.

8 Likes

Iā€™m hopeful it will be changed now, because if not I can certainly foresee the wails of the masses and calls for his nerf a month or two after release when he is dominating the meta. I advocate for his nerf against my own personal best interest, but for the long-term health and enjoyability of the game. I dont have GM, have more than enough rings, need Frida (who should be in that monthā€™s Atlantis), and donā€™t even have Guin or Zeline to compete for the Wizard emblems. Iā€™m also sitting on a ridiculous stockpile of gems from the deals over the least few months and Iā€™d be more than happy to chase and emblem multiples of him then run roughshod over the poor saps who do not have him, except I am not a self-serving weasel that has any desire to root for the degradation of the meta to ā€œflavor-of-the-month or bust.ā€

The other thing to consider is that it is far easier, fairer, and more palatable to buff heroes that people received and found lacking after the fact than it is to take a hero people spent time and money chasing/leveling/embleming and then reduce their desirability and effectiveness AFTER the investment was made.

6 Likes

Hello!
Iā€˜m sorry but I donā€˜t understand the burning-damage-calculation. It isnā€˜t fixed to an amount like it is mentioned in heroes description?
I would understand all if there is spoken about a percentage(deals 208% etc.-> damage points rising so dealing too) but in the description of GM and the french musceteer( yes, Alexandre Dumas, old liar, there are not three plus Dā€˜Artagnan)ā€¦a wizard as a musceteeršŸ¤”ā€¦there is just have been wroten a fixed(?) amountā€¦
Maybe Iā€˜m extremly stupidā€¦sorryā€¦

Damage Over Time (DoT) amounts scale with the base attack stat, which is affected by:

  • Talent Grid
  • Troops
  • Unlisted 20% attack bonus for heroes on Defense

This thread explains in detail: Understanding DoT (Damage over Time)

3 Likes

How DoT works is not clearly explained by the game, but essentially it deals a % of whatever your attack stat was at the START of the match (counting troops and emblems, but not counting things like debuffs applied by enemies that occur during the match). The % damage dealt differs from hero ability to hero ability with some higher and some lower per turn,

2 Likes

Thanks for your help.
But I have to at first encrease the ā€žnormalā€œ damage and then the increasing with the help of them is shown?
My Azlar has still 360.
Troop +20% in game: 432?
Second time: Sorryā€¦

Yes, Azlarā€™s burn damage will increase based on your Troop.

Hereā€™s a real example:

My Azlar card (notice 360 burn damage):

My Troop:

Azlar with the Troop in a battle (notice 414 burn damage):

6 Likes

Thank you!
Playing for such a long time and did not know it; donā€˜t noticedā€¦:rage:

1 Like

Too much analysis. Appreciate it though for being highly informative. Anyway, we should also consider availability of heroes that can cleanse his burn. Not only just a cleanser, but fast ones. I know zim is one, but she is near impossible to get for f2p and c2p. Heroes that prevent negative effects are the same.

Remember that JF is fast. Even if i bring rigard with average mana and time his special, JF most probably will fire his SS again before rigard gains full mana for the second time.

Now, an option would be to bring two cleansers but would now take up a slot in my raiding team that supposed to be a damage dealer. Thus, any hero that will require 2 cleansers in a team to counter is OP. I was only considering his burn dot but he still has other abilities to deal with.

2 Likes

The simple approach: If it smells OP then it probably is OP

JF is prima facie OP just purely based on the fact that JF depletes more than half of most heroesā€™ health and it applies to all five heroes. This is just from the firing of one well timed special

There isnā€™t much more to be said.

9 Likes

image

4 Likes