# Do Elemental Defense Debuffs and Regular Defense Debuffs Stack? Why use them together? For instance, Grimm, Tiburtus, Gormek, Buddy or Wilbur with Guardian Jackal, Falcon, Panther, Arthur, Frida, Nordri, or Evelyn. [MASTER]

You need more than one data point to draw a conclusion on 898/486 ratio. It’s a 85% increase, usually from Wilbur alone I get about 55% increase. it’s the random factor that blurrs low data point sets, I think the 85% is a lower than average hit affected by both regular and elemental debuff.
In the video, the first Drake SS would have been higher if the player would have fired Jackal first.
And yes, I have Jackal and Falcon and Wilbur.

If the hero that applies the debuff doesn’t cause damage, like Wilbur for example, I fire him first.
If the hero applies both debuff and damages at the same time, like Gormek or Falcon, you’d need to do the math. Probably firing Falcon before Gormek, but it’s hard to tell without a bit of experimentation. It depends on how big the debuff is vs how much the SS damage is

Wilbur def down cause (1 / 0.56) ^ 1.35 = 2.187. Means it adds more than 100% damage without the random factor. The random factor will affect a lots to the ratio as it applies to both values.
Anyway appreciate if you may test and produce a formula. What I can see so far is if elemental debuff is applied to the SS then the ratio must be much higher

I have a discussion on other thread: Jabberwocky - 600% Damage Against Titans?
and come to my own conclusion: def down and elemental def down does not stack for special skill (only elemental def down will be effective) for above case.

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Sorry for the new thread…

I’m actually looking for the chat that shows how General Defense Down (like from the Ramming Pulverizors) stack with Elemental (Specific) Defense Down (Guardians). I know it also maxes out at around 70% (and was confirmed).

Thanks in advance.

Not sure where the thread is but the general defense and elemental defense are separate effects and should stack without a cap

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I appreciate the response.

The idea of no cap was debunked by the devs…

But, I could be imagining that…

I really believe the 70% number for Total Defense Down was confirmed. Again, I absolutely could be mistaken.

@Poofsta I moved your question to a thread that can help answer it.

I suspect you’re thinking of Kerridoc’s post in this thread:

I’m not sure where that would have been.

The game developers have typically said very little about how damage calculation works.

Everything I’ve ever seen (including the above) is based on player observations.

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Thanks, Zephyr! This is one of the pages I was looking for. Indeed, Kerridoc’s post was one of what I remembered.

I think I’m blending an in-game Chat from the devs with this discussion…

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So do I get it right?

The special skills have no color… Is this true?

Example: i fire Gormek than Falcon than Azlar… Falcon and Azlar will get the normal def down from Gormek but Azlar will not get the extra Fire def down from Falcon… So elemental defense down only works for tiles and not for special skills…

I’m I correct?

The elemental defense down also applies to special skills.

So the color of the attacker’s special skill does not matter (it’s “grey”) unless elemental defense modifiers are in use (Falcon , Kasshrek) … In this case the special skill “get” the color of the caster… Is this correct?

What about a defending hero hitting an elemental-debuffed attacker? Does the same logic apply?

Yes that is correct (except for some cases where the special has special boost against a color, will say so in the special description).

The same will also apply to defending hero.

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Like Vela? How would her special stack with Falcon’s? I assume Falcon will not affect the Dot from Vela, but Vela’s description says: deals extra damage against Fire…

Vela will deal extra damage against fire heroes but Vela is blue so will not benefit from Falcon.

Dot damage doesn’t benefit from any defense down

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Gravemaker on the other hand will deal extra damage against Nature regardless of any defense down but will benefit from falcon on initial damage to any colors.

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OMG this is getting a bit confusing…

Answered in my post above.

Don’t know if it helps but instead of looking at specials as “grey” maybe look at it like this:

Week, neutral and strong color bonus only applies to tiles.

Specials only get a color based bonus if it explicitly states so in the special description.

DoT damage bypasses defense so any buffs/debuffs to defense have no effect on damage done by DoT.

Specials direct damage is effected by defense so defense buffs/debuffs decrease/increase damage done by specials.

Elemental debuffs lower defense for tiles and specials when tiles/special damage is done by same color of elemental de-buff.

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I have an question here, about elemental def debuff and stacking with regular def debuff.

I’ve made a simple test. I made a team, of Melenor costumed, Red Hood, Grimm, G. Jackal and Sabina. I went to S2:15-9N, and attack kunuiakea totem (green mob) with yellow tiles. Jackal attack was shown 895 in the battle (765 base + 17% from 4* mana troop lvl 1). First without any debuffs, second time with Grimm def debuff, third time with jackal elemental def debuff and fourth time with both debuffs active. I made several runs, to have some variety in results. So

Case 1, no debuff. Damage from tile was 51.
Case 2, Grimm debuff -34%. Damage from tile was 87.
Case 3, Jackal elemental debuff -54%. Damage from tile was 96.
Case 4, both Grimm and Jackal. Damage from tile was 111.

Given that, we can calculate effective defense in each case.
Case 1. 653
Case 2. 440
Case 3. 409
Case 4. 367

Case 2 and Case 1 difference is 33% (Grimm is shown -34%) - good so far
Case 3 and Case 1 difference is 37% (Jackal is shown -54%) - not good
Case 4 and Case 1 difference is 44% (expected is 82% or 70% capped) - also not good

So, I assume, that elemental def debuff is calculated differently during damage calculation. I’ve done only a small amount of runs, so there can be errors in numbers due to and RNG the Almighty. But let me point to a the thing, that there are several such topics, each stating that elemental debuff is kinda different, than general def debuff. And damage expected is higher, than actual damage.

The question is, can someone make independent series of tests and prove me wrong or right.

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