# Do Elemental Defense Debuffs and Regular Defense Debuffs Stack? Why use them together? For instance, Grimm, Tiburtus, Gormek, Buddy or Wilbur with Guardian Jackal, Falcon, Panther, Arthur, Frida, Nordri, or Evelyn. [MASTER]

To the best of our knowledge, the debuffs stack multiplicatively.

Example: You take Grimm (34% general defense reduction) and Jackal (-54% Holy defense reduction). The target’s effective defense is (1 - 0.34)*(1 - 0.54) = 30%, or a 70% defense reduction.

Remember that this goes into the damage calculation inside the exponent. The general formula says expected damage is proportional to (Attack / Defense) ^ 1.35. So a 70% reduction in effective defense basically quintuples the per-tile damage.

This multiplier is damped down by an unquantified but confirmed tempering of the damage as the ratio of attack to defense gets very high. You probably won’t see the tempering much unless you have big stacks of the color.

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@Kerridoc: How do you know who stacks and who overwrites? It seems complicated and confusing.

I’ve been playing E&P for just over a year. This is my 1st online RPG and im getting the hang of things, but figuring out these finer points has been a challenge. If you could go into detail (ie: give lots of examples), I’d appreciate it. I guess what I need are some hard and fast rules to go by…if there are any.

From what I understand Wilbur’s defence down (-44%) will stack with guardian falcon, jackal and others similar element defence down. I know that it doesnt stack with others like kiril and grimm, and regular defence down.First I would like to cofirm that is indeed true, and second if someone could provide some math.

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Well it is true
But be careful as some elemental defense down heroes like Evelyn and frida will also remove buffs from enemies, and sharing damage is considered a buff
Also what kind of math you are looking for?

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Yes, that’s true. Wilbur and Falcon stack their defense down and elemental defense down ailments.

Explanation is here:

Taking Wilbur + Falcon would be:

(1 - 0.44) x (1 - 0.54) = 25.76% remaining defense against fire, or a total -74.24% defense reduction against fire.

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thanks !! that’s exactly what I was looking for. So fire Wilbur, then falcon, and then say colen, and he would hit like a truck. I’m guessing more than Wilbur, BT, Colen. thanks to Expired also… great insite.

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The reduction of defense is not that dramatic as it seems from this calculation.
One would think that with 25% left of defense, every shot from a fire hero would do at least 4 times the damage. It’s not happening.
Each debuff adds more to the damage and the numbers just add, not multiply.
Fire Kelile, she does X damage. Fire Kelile after Wilbur and she does about 60% more damage.
Fire Kelile after Falcon and she does 70% more damage. Fire Kelile after both and she does
130% more damage (so expect X*2.3 damage). Do not expect 400% or you’ll be dissapointed

Please educate me on this subject.

Specifically, I’ve been advised to use both a defense down and am elemental defense down against titans when going mono + Ranvir.

I don’t understand how this is beneficial. How does Buddy, for example, help score titan points when I’ve already got Evelyn for Elemental defense down? Again assuming mono green + Ranvir.

Thoughts?

Both shields stack for a cumulative high amount of def down against tiles of the element.

With both downs and 2 att up boosts active at the same time, a single strong tile can deal up to 10k of damage in the waek point.

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What olmor said. Elemental and regular defense debuffs stack.

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As stated above, defense debuff and elemental defense debuff stack. So a -25% defense and -40% green defense amounts to around a -65% defense decrease when you hit with a green tile or special.

Not only that, but defense debuffs will usually increase your damage more than attack buffs of a similar amount do. This is because the game has some internal caps on how much damage can be boosted, but there are no caps on how low defense can go. So if you are choosing between an attack buff or a similar defense debuff, the debuff is generally going to do more.

Special skill doesn’t care about element so I may assume that only normal def debuff will be active but elemental def debuff.

I’m not entirely sure what you mean, it’s not that clear.
The purpose of this thread is to clarify if placing a regular defense debuff and an elemental debuff on the same enemy hero would make the damage stack and by how much. I pointed out that the stacking is added, not multiplied, like 100%+60%+70% rather than 160%*170%.
Regular defense buff kicks in for any special, for elemental defense buff you need to use the right color hero to apply (like Chao after Jackal, not after Falcon)

I’m assuming that Chaos after Jackal has no affect. Elemental debuff should be applied to tile damage only

If you’re wondering about it or asking a question, I can try answer it. If you’re making a statement, as in “Elemental debuff applies only to tile damage” that’s incorrect

I don’t have an elemental debuff to test myself yet so I just be able to assume and wait for confirmation. But I’m sure that while ppl is talking about tile damage, you talk about special skill damage which is completely different, as least I am sure myself there is no weak/strong color in special skill, hence it will surprise me if elemental debuff has effect in SS. Anyone else may test and confirm about this?

There is a thread about Damage calculation and I may assume you have read it.
SS damage is simply a multiplier of a slash damage (ignoring the strong/weak color).

Giving an example: fire Grim then Jackal then Joon on the same target, if the elemental debuff has affect, the damage output should be around 2000% of a slash damage. I doubt that number and that’s why I doubt the effect of elemental debuff to SS.

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Please read again the opening post, Sona is asking about firing Drake Fong after Grimm and Jackal. He’s talking about specials in that case, so you being sure about people talking about tile damage makes me scratch my head.
The double defense debuff (elemental + regular) applies to both tiles and specials and I never claimed otherwise.
I tried to warn people about not to expect any ridiculous increase in damage. It’s not 400% or 2000%, it’s just about 220-230%. It’s still a pretty good increase.

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I agree with you that for special skill, the damage is not multiplied 2000% else it will be dead combo to kill any hero. However I disagree that elemental debuff has affect on special skill.
Fire Joon on purple has different than other color? No.
Fire Joon against def debuff, different? Yes.
Fire Joon against both def debuff and elemental debuff? Same as above.
That’s what I’m trying to say. Just from my experience watching video.
For example this one

First Drake SS does 486 damage, no debuff
2nd Dranke SS does 898 damage, both def debuff and elemental debuff.
You may notice that 2nd damage is well aligned with Wilbur effect only.

Say for instance hitting titan , does it matter which you fire first to get most damage from the two hits
Is should use elemental debuffer first or regular debuff . OR use the one of the two that has higher / lower percentage noted on card

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