[Discussion] Gacha, Pseudo Gambling, Pity timers, Shops and ethics or Ethical Profits?

This is why I tagged you :).

Thank you for this contribution!

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That damn Canadian devil is at it again. No nuance.
Thanks for all the great info here. And i have to say it sure does feel like this game has a pity timer style sometimes. I’m “sure” it’s just my paranoia though…

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Awesome as always. Thank you so much

:smiley_cat:

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Profits

Unfortunately, it is very hard to run a profitable company in an ethical manner ( see notes ).

SGG founding motto is “survive at all costs” which was great for a dying studio, but carries over to a successful studio with some unfortunate side effects.

Notes

Gravity Payments
(The boss who put everyone on 70K - BBC News)

USAA auto insurance ( clicky, clicky )

But then USAA tried banking in the 1980s which lead to a buyout in 2019 ( Banking is very gorram frakking messed up currently).
(Veterans with USAA to see reduced cash yields following Charles Schwab deal | Financial Planning)

Ben & Jerry ( what happened when Ben retired )
(A Sweet Solution to the Sticky Wage Disparity Problem - ABC News)

FIN

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Isn’t the whole puzzle model a gamble? You get a good board, you win. You get a bad board…God mercy.

All strategies are dependent on boards, which you don’t know if they’re with you or not.

Boards

I strongly disagree.

As do many, many articles on the forum:

(Raiding in the Top 1000, Pt. 1)

See also Player Guides

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So, for the simple reason that I don’t like something regarding the game, you assumed I’m a bad player and redirected me to the player guides, right?

Wow…

I have a feeling that this forum is full of haters. You don’t have the right to say anything against the game as you’ll get silenced by a few “independent” players…

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I am sorry you do not like this forum.

I noticed some of my teammates prefer (Reddit - Dive into anything)

Or Line or Discord.

(Good LINE and Discord groups)

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I believe for the most part this forum is full of people who share information, which is exactly what he did. Nowhere did he call you a bad player. I completely agree that this game feels board dependent. But there are ways to work around that if you’re willing to put in the effort, which I am not. I just gave up on raiding in diamond because it wasn’t fun anymore. But all he was trying to do was direct you to other threads that address your concerns and give you information on how to overcome that. If you still feel offended by a reasonable response, I suggest you take his second post advice and try somewhere else.

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No, he was responding to

and the fact that many people here do not agree with that statement.

The first strategy in any raid is hero selection, which has nothing to do with boards but everything to do with the opponent’s heroes.

Actually doing the raid is board-dependent, and the strategy there is how to maximize the board’s potential.

There are also strategies for hero development that are also entirely board-independent.

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First of all, excellent breakdown. I’m personally not a fan of any form of Gacha game (now that I actually know what it is), but it’s cool to know that there are different variations (some of which may be “more fair” or “less fair” or “not safe for children” etc.).

I won’t bother getting into a discussion over insurance, I’ve already ranted enough for the day. And when it comes to gambling in general? I think it’s ethical as long as it’s completely transparent and highly regulated. To the best of my knowledge, E&P has failed to meet either one of these standards.

I could be wrong, of course. I’m sure they’ve technically met all the legal standards (otherwise… we wouldn’t all still be playing, as the game would have been banned in “most” countries already).

As for the boards themselves… well… yeah… a good board can make you just as a bad board can break you. But ultimately your average is still going to end up at a certain level dependent upon the teams and strategies you’re using. Some days you are up, some days you are down. Add up the scores, divide by number of days, and you get your average. That’s where you’ll usually be, within a +/- margin of error-ish type range.

Also, I don’t think there is another forum poster who has been more intelligently critical of the game than @Gryphonknight .

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Since we’re going down that relatively off-topic path anyway…

46iuab

46iuh7

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I strongly disagree.

Gambling, like alcohol and tobacco, are legal because regulation helps blunt the impact on a population as a whole ( similar to well regulated insurance).

In fact there is a part of contract law that says, if you do not list a specific bad outcome, you cannot waive being sued because you did not do your research on bad outcomes and how to prevent the contract signees from having a bad outcome.

Example
Having a drinking contest for a game console, but not researching water poisoning.

But another part of contract law says once you have done your research, you must take adequate safeguards against that bad outcome, or warn the signee the burden of adequate safeguards fall on that party.

Example
Having EMT trained in water poisoning on hand and monitoring or having contestants bring their own trained EMT.

But the ethics part comes, what if the signee cannot afford the safeguards?

Example
If the contestant cannot afford an EMT trained in water poisoning monitoring?

The contestant dies of water poisoning, but your contest was legal because you warned them of water poisoning.

With society still wrestling with Gacha, loot box practices, pseudo gambling and other ways to lure customers into micro transactions, I would argue that transparency is not enough.

This is the whole reason I rejoined the forum and started publishing loot box unit pricing.

If SGG will not be ethical after 3 years, I will try and be the “Loot box monitoring EMT” for them.

Notes

(Jury Rules Against Radio Station After Water-Drinking Contest Kills Calif. Mom - ABC News)

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Ah, so you’re actually arguing that it’s still unethical even if it is transparent and highly regulated?

Odd. Usually I get the opposite response here.

Just to be clear… if I understand you correctly… you are in fact stating that Gacha games are unethical even if they are completely transparent and highly regulated?

I’m half inclined to wholeheartedly agree! But then I also have this other half stubborn libertarian streak within me that wants to be able to smoke, drink, and go to casinos every now and then…

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SGG

No.

Gacha, as implemented by SGG over the last 3 years, falls under the above list of unethical Gacha.

Especially for players 13-21 years old.

Context

But context matters.

Penny ante poker is very ethical.

Strip poker, especially versions with contact between players, can be very unethical due to peer pressure and especially if alcohol is involved and especially if age difference among players is significant.

Regulation

Especially in USA, regulation always has trouble keeping up with progress.

Transparency

Transparency does not help if you cannot make decisions for your self ( legal minors ) or understand the transparency ( merciless RNG ) or obscure too much ( $ USD → gems → rarity group odds) or design mechanics to enhance peer pressure.

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This is cool

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Thats a weird age range you picked. why are 18 to 21 year old grown men and women lumped in with 13 year old chikdren?

13 is 8th grade in most cases. Thats freaking middle school. 18 is a grown man or woman starting a career or attending college, possibly getting married and preparing to have their own children. Its also the age in which you can be drafted and sent off to war. Lumping them in with middle school children is VERY insultive. They are adults, with all the responsibility that comes with being an adult.

Oh I completely agree with you on that point. If they want to base their “summoning metrics” or whatever on a gambling model? One should have to be of legal gambling age before they’re allowed to participate.

Yikes! Yeah, again, if younger players are involved? It’s not ethical.

I mean, I did learn to play poker at a young age (11 or 12)… but back then I was either gambling with pennies, or plastic chips, or Halloween candy. Nothing significant or explicit.

I’m well above the age of legal consent myself (for just about anything LOL). I’m also beyond the beyond age of what some would say actually should be the age of consent (25-26 or so, based on brain development).

I fully agree that nobody under a certain age should be allowed to buy any gems in this game, period. Seeing as how I’m old enough and able to make my own decisions (somewhat) responsibly, all I ask personally is that SG be more upfront about their predatory pricing model, instead of hiding it behind a tiny little “i” icon in the summon portal. Now that I am fully informed, I know well enough not to spend any more.

I guess I should have specified “age limits” along with regulation and transparency.

In most parts of the U.S., currently, you must be 21 years old to purchase alcohol or tobacco, or to gamble in casinos.

I know, it doesn’t seem fair that an 18 year old can be drafted for military service, but not legally allowed to buy a beer… but that is the way it is according to the law, at least in the “states”.

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I am aware of that. But one bad law doesn’t change the fact they are adults