[Discussion] Gacha, Pseudo Gambling, Pity timers, Shops and ethics or Ethical Profits?

I could try to redo all of the mugs in different colors, but… you know how many people post here regularly? How many mugs I’ve made? We’d have to go through a whole thing of each person requesting different colors, and what if everyone requests the same color? Then we’re back at square one.

Off topic of off topic… would you like a mug? :grin:
I could even experiment with my options and give you a different color mug or background.
Though keep in mind that if I have to go through and remake everyone’s mug in a different color, this whole mug thing could go on for years…


It’s funny that most modern societies consider one to be an “adult” at the age of 18. Okay. Is there something magical that happens between the ages of 17 and 18? Not that I’m aware of. Guess they just had to pick a number and 18 is what they decided on.

So at the age of 18, you are an adult. You can move out, get a job, buy a house, buy a car, sign up for the military, etc.

Oh but wait! In the U.S. at least, you still can’t buy a beer, or gamble in a casino.

Oooookayyyyyy… why?

I’ll answer that question with a question: what do you get when you combine an elephant with a rhinoceros? Elephino!

But anyway… it gets weirder still.

Most scientists say that the decision making part of the brain (prefrontal cortex) doesn’t fully develop in most human beings until around the age of 25.


I know, right???

So does that mean that people don’t actually reach full adulthood until the age of 25? The law seems to allow some flexibility there (probably because they just want those 18-year-olds to get out there in the world and start paying taxes and dying for their countries ASAP).

But guess what? In the U.S. at least, just as the “law” says you’re old enough to die for your country at 18 years old, you still have to wait 3 more years before you can have a beer… and when it comes to car insurance or even renting a car? If you’re under the age of 25, expect to get hit with a penalty charge - simply for being “too young”.

“So basically… at 16 years old, the government tells me I’m allowed to drive a car and fly a plane… at 18 years old, I’m allowed to vote and buy a gun… but I have to be 21 to buy a beer… and 25 before an insurance company trusts that I’m fully responsible?”

Pretty much, yup!

And even then… they still don’t fully trust you. Not until you’re at least 30-35 years old. That’s when banks and insurance companies and credit bureaus and such can really start putting “faith” in you, assuming that by that time, you’ve sowed your wild oats and finally settled down into the person you’re probably going to be for the rest of your life. Or at least until you reach the age of senility, at which point they will slowly start taking your rights away from you again, until you revert all the way back to a state of wearing diapers and babbling incoherently.

Circle of life. :laughing:


@Gryphonknight for whatever reason on mobile, publishers cannot profitably develop and publish premium games (games that cost money to download) with no microtransactions.

That means you have certain business models depending on the genre.

For very casual games, you can simply show people ads. However, there is a class action lawsuit against Disney and other mobile publishers because the ad platforms use your data to show you appropriate ads, even if you’re a kid.

For puzzle games like candy crush, you can sell consumable boosters to complete levels but thats only because of ‘fine tuning’ which make levels sometimes impossible to complete without boosters. E&P doesn’t do this.

For social casino games, (slots, poker, bingo) the business model is surprisingly identical to real life. You buy the ingame currency and spend it as you would at a casino except without any real money rewards.

For RPGs, it becomes very complicated, most games like e&p need to sell heroes in order to be profitable. So why gatcha instead of just selling the specific heroes? As crazy as it sounds, I think people enjoy gatcha more than buying specific heroes. If SG just sold gravemaker to anybody for 50 bucks, in theory, we should all be happier but in practice, maybe we would all have buyer remorse?

On ethics, ethics are subjective and relative. The consumer market has voted with its time and money for free to play games on mobile. I suspect that means that this is ethical.

Umm, no. The consumer market has many, many times voted with its time and money for cheaper products at stores that were made cheaper through either illegal waste dumping or illegal child labour (or other unethical practices). The laws of supply and demand are entirely independent of ethics.

The consumer looks at the price tag and never looks behind (or beyond) the price tag.

And I admit I am as guilty of this as anyone. I do try to adjust my consumerism in light of discoveries of such practices, and I often myself question the likelihood of items being SO cheap as they are, but many don’t.

Personally, if SG just sold GM for $50 I would have zero chance at getting him. With the gacha model I have the oh so slimmest chance of getting him (essentially just a hair above zero).

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Also, WHAT? Ethics is the philosophical study of right and wrong. Relative and subjective to what exactly?

relative to whoever is writing the blog post I guess? unless you believe that everybody agrees on what is right and wrong?

Well, the whole idea of ethics is a collective agreement on right and wrong based on not being subjective. No one person can decide what ethics are. You can decide what your personal moral code is but ethics is a societal characteristic.

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Eh some people won’t get it

He obviously doesn’t track performance & consistency

Instead just remembers anecdotals and finds ways to point blame

Luckily that sorta attitude is why i doubt i have or ever will come across him/her/whatever in wars…

Anyways my main point:

I’ve learned arguing with these types is a waste of time. Their mind is made up, they refuse to have it changed. Probly because it’s a bit reassuring when they perform poorly over and over and over again “it’s not their fault” and they point to one of a dozen other reasons they can think up.

Don’t sweat it, don’t respond, let em fade to black so the forum is better off for those that want to use it for it’s better uses

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Yeah I had kinda reached that point but God help me I always have to try.

It drives my kids nuts (so added bonus there :laughing:).


That is the point.

It is like barcode nicknames in Ingress or the Safeway clone army.


You can get the same discount when you get married.

So according to car insurance actuarial tables, you take mating risks until 25, or you snag a partner. More likely until you have a baby in your vehicle but single parenthood adds additional automobile risks like insufficient sleep, food insecurity and lack of time to prepare healthy food.

So biology favors doing risky stuff until you have a family.

Now only if we could get SGG to give us less risks after X real currency commitment ( shop or shards )

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I believe the theory there is that once you have a family, you will automatically become more responsible. And for some people, that is absolutely true. I’ve seen otherwise reckless people completely turn their lives around after they had children.

Unfortunately… I’ve also seen some reckless people continue to be reckless after having children. :frowning:

Micro transactions

I agree about the original Empires release that happened 3 years ago.

But GameClub, Apple Arcade, and Google play are trying to remove the need for micro transactions for profitably.

Just because a business model is profitable, does not mean another model cannot become profitable with the right situation and infrastructure.

Similar to what Netflix did with physical DVD rental stores and cable mega bundle subscriptions.

Or what Apple did with 1x hit, 13x song albums.

Government regulation

While theoretically customer spending can drive ethically changes, see plastic straws for a current debate, in the past it has not worked that way.

Marketplaces only care about profits. A classic example is product dumping ( see notes ).

In the past child labor, and unpaid overtime were common, and still are in parts of the world.

It was not customers SPENDING that changed this. Instead journalistic exposure of the situation leading to population pressure, including non spenders, leading to government regulation.

Government regulation imposes ethics on the marketplace.

Once it is illegal, or properly regulated, then consumers have a choice between companies that follow the law and those that do not.

And sometimes the government regulation has to deal with very murky ethics, see plastic straws and disabled customers.

Ethical Gacha

Venan Entertainment ran a semi ethical gacha MMO model for 5 years.

So it can be semi ethical and profitable.

Niantic is working the semi ethical due to gacha and legal minors problem.

In a bit of bad karma, when Venan tried to ethical copy the Clash of Clans business model, the copy ( Space Miner Wars ) bankrupted the company.

Not the original Space Miner: Space ORE Bust which failed due to lack of micro transactions but is now available through GameClub. SGG should put Oddwings on GameClub, I would love to try it.

So mobile games are tricky.


(Dumping (pricing policy) - Wikipedia)

(plastic straws disabled community - Google Search)

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Vehicular insurance

No. The way I understand it, even insurance companies do not know, or care, why actuarial tables work.

They are like house odds, as long as the house always wins, business is profitable.

Mandatory data collection

Sociologists like examining vehicle insurance data for behavior patterns since many governments mandate vehicle insurance so there is less bias in the data.

But even they cannot agree on the exact mechanism behind accident rate, 25 years old and married.

Increasing profits

I have been told American casinos wanted more roulette profits than European casinos, so America roulette has 3x green zeros instead of 2x green zeros, to increase losses of customers betting on black and betting on red.

So the degree of profits can also be influenced by the implementation of a legal business practice ( looking at you Costume chamber and Taverns of legends ).

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The actuarial tables are just an aggregation of collected data that shows what groups are more likely to have accidents. So the tables show that unmarried males under 25 have statistically highest accident rates, thus highest insurance rates. Theories are proposed to explain this trend but certainly have no influence on it. I suspect more young males become less risky and error-prone as they get older and married than the reverse.

It’s like in engineering we have tables of data on strength tests of materials to determine the value we use in formulas. No one knows exactly what the strength of a material is or why at this point. We only know a statistical average of what it tests out as.

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AFAIK our roulette tables only have 2x green zeroes… but then, I rarely play roulette. Wouldn’t surprise me at all if they tried to add a third. :laughing:

Yep, I know how it works. I also understand the real world reasons as to why the data comes out the way that it does. Reality is that females tend to be more responsible and level-headed than males (and I say this as a male myself). A young married male is less likely to do something stupid if he knows that his wife would disapprove of it. Whereas an unmarried male is more likely to do something stupid, especially when trying to “show off” to potential mating partners. :laughing:

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Came for the gacha discussions, stayed for actuarial table insights.


As long as they show what they sell I see no unethical practice.

Few days ago I saw an twitter argument about the price of a football (soccer) team: more than 100 pounds while similar no costumed shirt would cost 20 pounds. Well, that´s the offer and demand law.

I don´t know about the numbers SGG manages, but I know a certain thing: in past century Discographic companies tend to sell music at a quite high prices they made quite a money selling a famous singer “new album” (3 new songs and 7 old) but most people got access to that music by illegal copies. Now with the digital plattforms bussiness they also make tons of money but there are not paralel activities in order to get that content.

I think as long as they keep the users trapped they will keep making money, but there are more games of this kind and if some of them offer better content with less investment and get more visibility the benefits will go down. But is the vital cycle of every videogame. I know people loyal to games more than 10 years old despite they are quite abandoned.

Some interesting information in this video about cosmetic micro transactions


Merciless RNG, and unethical Gatcha, makes it impossible to plan because the odds will ALWAYS catch up to players without unlimited funds.

It is not IF you will miss a critical hero like Telluria, costume Marjana, Tarlak, etc., it is WHEN you will miss a critical hero, permanently locking out part of the game.

Ethical gotcha also let’s you PLAN ( see notes ).

You know you can get Telluria, costume Marjana and Tarlak. The question is will you get it unexpectedly early or will you have to grind a REASONABLE amount.


Click for notes

Game play and planning



(Something a little more certain for your spend - shards?)


Game play information

([Suggestion] For Devs or Rival match 3 Devs or Update tile selection frame with damage info- updated with special skill damage and defense normal attacks)