[Discussion] Gacha, Pseudo Gambling, Pity timers, Shops and ethics or Ethical Profits?

Subject
[Discussion] Gacha, Pseudo Gambling, Pity timers, Shops and ethics or Ethical profits?

Ethics

No.

As far as I know there are multiple versions of Gacha, only two are semi ethical for 13- 21 year olds.

Banned Gacha

Complete Gacha, or Kompu Gacha, is illegal in Japan and most countries.

Merciless RNG Gacha

Research is showing most IMPLEMENTATIONS of merciless RNG Gacha are equivalent to gambling.

Pity timer Gacha

Research is showing most IMPLEMENTATIONS of pity timer RNG Gacha are equivalent to gambling.

Modern analytics can even use hidden pity timers to increase micro transactions buy rewarding certain buying patterns, and play styles.

Hybrid

The only semi ethical version of Gacha, that I know of is hybrid currency Gacha, and bonus Gacha.

Hybrid Currency Gacha

For hybrid currency Gacha you have a shop selling Gravemaker for 5000 shards, Jackal for 1500 shards, Nordi for 500 shards.

Players can buy 100 shards for $1.00 USD.

Players can earn shards from game play ( grinding ).

Or players can earn shards from gacha. Example if you could retire heroes for 10% ( standard ), or 1% ( very grindy) shop price in shards, then gacha based Legendary training ( RT20 ) would generate 50 to 500 shards per hero trained, or 5 to 50 if very grindy.

This is ethical because all costs are transparent, and two alternatives to gacha - buying or grinding - are present to mitigate the gacha.

Bonus Gacha

This is the inverse of hybrid currency Gacha.

Every time you buy / grind shards, you have a chance to get a hero.

If you buy / grind 500 shards, you also get a chance at a free Nordi. Buy/ grind 1500 shards, you also get a chance at a free Jackal. Buy/ grind 5000 shards and you also get a chance at a free Gravemaker.

So if you buy/ grind 5000 shards to get Gravemaker and get a free Gravemaker, then you can use the 5000 shards to buy a second Gravemaker, any combination of heroes worth 5000 shards, save all 5000 shards, or any combination of heroes and saving shards.

This is also transparent, you can more easily see prices in shards ( currency neutral ) and micro transaction prices. But sometimes you will get free heroes.

13- 21 year olds

To make it actually ethical, the gacha elements of hybrid currency Gacha, and bonus Gacha would have to be turned off for 13- 21 year olds.

Niantic has several features turned off for players considered minors in their countries in Ingress Prime, Pokémon GO and Wizards Unite.

4* ascension items

4* ascension items are very very close to complete gacha, or Kompu Gacha, which was banned. Research might show it is a legal loophole.

Emblems

Emblems are less close than 4* ascension items to complete gacha, or Kompu Gacha, which was banned, but still closer to complete gacha than shops with purchase/ grinding neutral currency. Research might show it is a legal loophole.

Ethics

Why is gambling unethical? Why do we not roll dice when buying dinner? a coat? a car? a house?

When properly regulated, we do place bets every day, it is called insurance ( car, house, death, etc. ).

But in the case of insurance, the population as a whole covers the cost of a few rare unfortunate incidents ( see notes ). In the USA, Underwriters Laboratory ( UL ) checks products for safety. UL is funded by insurance companies to increase profits, but benefits the population by decreasing misfortunes.

Ethical gacha is the inverse of insurance. The population as a whole covers the cost - in micro transactions - of a few rare FORTUNATE incidents.

Notes

This shows how gambling can lead to global problems but also explains how insurance is a good form of gambling.

(https://scholarship.law.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1822&context=facpub)

47 Likes

Uhhmmmm, so… what kind of Gacha is Empires and Puzzles then?

The most profitable and most unethical one.

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That was simply brilliant.

Thank you.

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It’s the GOTCHA! kinda Gacha

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More of GOTCHAMONEY-wham-bam-thank-you-maam. LOL

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Mostly Merciless RNG, borrowing elements from other types.

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This is why I tagged you :).

Thank you for this contribution!

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That damn Canadian devil is at it again. No nuance.
Thanks for all the great info here. And i have to say it sure does feel like this game has a pity timer style sometimes. I’m “sure” it’s just my paranoia though…

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Awesome as always. Thank you so much

:smiley_cat:

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Profits

Unfortunately, it is very hard to run a profitable company in an ethical manner ( see notes ).

SGG founding motto is “survive at all costs” which was great for a dying studio, but carries over to a successful studio with some unfortunate side effects.

Notes

Gravity Payments
(https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/stories-51332811)

USAA auto insurance ( clicky, clicky )

But then USAA tried banking in the 1980s which lead to a buyout in 2019 ( Banking is very gorram frakking messed up currently).
(https://www.financial-planning.com/news/veterans-with-usaa-to-see-reduced-cash-yields-following-charles-schwab-deal)

Ben & Jerry ( what happened when Ben retired )
(https://abcnews.go.com/Business/companies-follow-ben-jerrys-lead-wages/story?id=19920634)

FIN

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Isn’t the whole puzzle model a gamble? You get a good board, you win. You get a bad board…God mercy.

All strategies are dependent on boards, which you don’t know if they’re with you or not.

Boards

I strongly disagree.

As do many, many articles on the forum:

(Raiding in the Top 1000, Pt. 1)

See also #player-guides

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So, for the simple reason that I don’t like something regarding the game, you assumed I’m a bad player and redirected me to the player guides, right?

Wow…

I have a feeling that this forum is full of haters. You don’t have the right to say anything against the game as you’ll get silenced by a few “independent” players…

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I am sorry you do not like this forum.

I noticed some of my teammates prefer (https://www.reddit.com/r/EmpiresAndPuzzles/)

Or Line or Discord.

(Good LINE and Discord groups)

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I believe for the most part this forum is full of people who share information, which is exactly what he did. Nowhere did he call you a bad player. I completely agree that this game feels board dependent. But there are ways to work around that if you’re willing to put in the effort, which I am not. I just gave up on raiding in diamond because it wasn’t fun anymore. But all he was trying to do was direct you to other threads that address your concerns and give you information on how to overcome that. If you still feel offended by a reasonable response, I suggest you take his second post advice and try somewhere else.

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No, he was responding to

and the fact that many people here do not agree with that statement.

The first strategy in any raid is hero selection, which has nothing to do with boards but everything to do with the opponent’s heroes.

Actually doing the raid is board-dependent, and the strategy there is how to maximize the board’s potential.

There are also strategies for hero development that are also entirely board-independent.

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First of all, excellent breakdown. I’m personally not a fan of any form of Gacha game (now that I actually know what it is), but it’s cool to know that there are different variations (some of which may be “more fair” or “less fair” or “not safe for children” etc.).

I won’t bother getting into a discussion over insurance, I’ve already ranted enough for the day. And when it comes to gambling in general? I think it’s ethical as long as it’s completely transparent and highly regulated. To the best of my knowledge, E&P has failed to meet either one of these standards.

I could be wrong, of course. I’m sure they’ve technically met all the legal standards (otherwise… we wouldn’t all still be playing, as the game would have been banned in “most” countries already).

As for the boards themselves… well… yeah… a good board can make you just as a bad board can break you. But ultimately your average is still going to end up at a certain level dependent upon the teams and strategies you’re using. Some days you are up, some days you are down. Add up the scores, divide by number of days, and you get your average. That’s where you’ll usually be, within a +/- margin of error-ish type range.

Also, I don’t think there is another forum poster who has been more intelligently critical of the game than @Gryphonknight .

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Since we’re going down that relatively off-topic path anyway…

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