[Discussion] Clock is ticking or Decision about Waiver for some players / “No class actions” – Updated Terms of Service

bless the internet for having every picture I Google. Now, to delete my search history… again

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Not sure that will get him the Sharon Stone role in the Basic Instinct remake.

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Is there a disclaimer or section for FTP arbitration? :rofl:

Its a long standing trend for companies to put these arbitration clauses in the ToS. I was surprised it wasn’t there before.

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Arbitration

IIRC SGG did not have the Arbitration clause because of the European Economic Area.

Zynga always had the arbitration clause for the US.

Neither surprised me.

Class Action Clause

The clause I am looking at is the Class Action clause which is weird.

It has a separate “Separation of terms” rule ( see notes ).

Which is really really weird in a contract ( see disclaimer).

Notes

Click for notes

TOS

Disclaimer ABA

Replace ABA with Gryphonkit and Gryphonknight.

Replace website with forum posts.

FIN

This is all what I package under Arbitration, and it is common. At least I’ve seen it a lot. They don’t want group negotiations and want to force everything through arbitration - normally through arbiters that are favorable to business and not consumers.

In fact consumer org in the US have been up in arms about these clauses for years.

Shag that - go go go (and bring your swim trunks… or don’t!)

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I found it.

New 2019-Apr-24 US Supreme Court ruling

(https://www.sandsanderson.com/news/2019/04/25/supreme-court-closes-the-door-mostly-to-class-action-arbitrations/)

SGG did not update its TOS, probably to save legal fees and due to the ( then ) upcoming buy out by Zynga.

Wait, what?! What is there to be afraid of?

Could it be possibly related to a phrase starting with L and ending with Box? :wink::rofl::joy:

Look, half-jokes aside I don’t know about you but I find this to be a very, very strange clause.

It may be a Zynga (or perhaps, excuse my ignorance, industry) gold standard but it’s bizzare and seems contrary to the spirit of the law. Why would we forfeit our right to a class action?

SG may find me a nuisance raising this thread but I think we should understand why we are signing up to this.

Clause extracted below

@Gryphonknight
@Elpis
@MysterySpin
@littleKAF
@zephyr1
@General_Confusion
@kwong79

No Class Actions

By voluntarily accepting these Terms (and in many of our Services by voluntarily clicking or tapping an in-game button to affirmatively indicate your agreement to these Terms), you, Zynga, and the Zynga Corporate Family all agree that the parties can only bring a claim against each other on an individual basis.

That means:

  • The parties agree that neither you nor Zynga nor any member of the Zynga Corporate Family can bring a claim as a plaintiff or class member in a class action, consolidated action, or representative action.
  • The parties agree that the arbitrator cannot combine more than one person’s claim into a single case, and cannot preside over any consolidated, class, or representative arbitration proceeding (unless the parties all agree to change this).
  • The parties agree that the arbitrator’s decision or award in one person’s case can only impact the person who brought the claim, not other Zynga players, and cannot be used to decide other disputes with other players.

If this subsection on “No Class Actions” is found to not be enforceable or valid, then the entire Section 15 (Agreement to Arbitrate and Class Action Waiver) will be null and void (i.e., go away). But the rest of the Terms, Feature Terms, and Community Rules will still apply.

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As I mentioned in the other thread, this is very common for any company providing a service. If you are in the US and read your ToS for your cell provider and cable provider I’m sure you will find very similar language…and if you have a credit card they all have such language. Most don’t offer opt outs…that is the odd thing…

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There was a lawsuit earlier this year against Epic Games over their “predatory” loot boxes.

More will follow, so if I have a game with loot boxes. I would want this agreement too.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2019/2/28/18245574/fortnite-epic-games-sued-lawsuit-predatory-llama-loot-boxes

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I hear ya, but based on my experience these self serving clauses don’t always stack up in court

I think a reasonable court would see right through it and adopt a construction that favours one where the parties couldn’t reasonably have intended to forfeit their right to a legitimate cause of action that arose before or after clicking on the terms…

Not from USA here of course but it’s common sense - - no doubt some of these class actions still get up even in the face of those sorts of clauses

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Meh… I kind of feel like it’s the same as…
Oh gawd… dare I say it… oh wth…
I feel like it’s the same as screaming about leveling up 1* heroes. You pushed the button. SG or Zynga or whoever don’t have mind control software yet.
Do they? :rofl:
No one is being forced to mortgage their house, although I do wonder, if there are people here who have!

But… that’s their choice!

I personally have good time in Vegas. And am able spend within my means. I enjoy this game too, and have no problem with them protecting their earnings

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But it extends to much wider than lootboxes.

It’s asking you to give up all your rights to a class action.

Eg. If a virus spread to all our phones from the E and P app SG is basically saying too bad you can’t all sue us - intuitively that doesn’t make sense right

Both parties couldn’t possibly have contemplated that we’d not find them responsible for such an event

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I agree, but it forces another hurdle in the process, and will discourage some entirely. And that’s the whole point.

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  1. Despite the relevent clauses stating they apply only to US and Canadian players I can see one almighty loophole they’ve left for Canadian players to wriggle through… I’m not going to spell it out as that’s what the company lawyers were paid to do and I’m sure not fixing it for free…

And

  1. I really would like to see how well their “Children under the age of 16 in the EEA must not use our services” works to cover their backside in a game in which they’ve declared they’ve written custom analytics to profile the best way to pump money out of each player but failed to put any basic age checks in place. I doubt you can find a judge anywhere in Europe that will accept the premise that 16 year olds will naturally check the terms and conditions first to see if they’re allowed to play and so no other checks are necessary…
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The “no class action” clause is virtually impossible to enforce in the USA, as are most clauses in any ToS. The way the courts look at it, agreeing to any ToS is done under a degree of duress (agree or you can’t play anymore and we’ll take away all the stuff you paid money for). Duress renders any agreement void.

This doesn’t mean everyone is free to violate ToS without consequences! Most clauses in the ToS are reasonable things (i.e. don’t cheat, don’t steal, don’t claim our stuff is yours etc). That means most stuff in the ToS would be upheld in courts as reasonable. And even if a court might find in your favor, you will have to get a lawyer and go to court to fight SGG/Zinga if they take action against you for violating ToS.

Also, I’m not a lawyer, I just have some approximate understanding of ToS agreements. So take what I post with a grain of salt.

Nitpicking here…all of the threads are titled “Updated” Terms of Service.

This is the first time a ToS has ever been presented to me. When I created the 3rd account, I specifically was looking for something as I found it interesting that a game with such revenue would not have one. Nothing was ever presented.

Edit: Absolutely no instructions or directions for the Customer Support opt-out method. By clicking on the CS link I am opting out? :laughing:

Small Giant has always had ToS, but they didn’t used to prompt for accepting them.

They actually still have the outdated ones posted here:

https://info.smallgiantgames.com/terms-of-service/

Copy/Paste archive, since these might get taken down

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By posting and stating herein on the official Small Giant Games forum, I hereby reserve the rights to which you are attempting to trick me into giving away, in order to play a game that I have already been playing. Any issue arising from previous game-play, regardless of what subsequent ToS may claim, are preserved, reserved, and available to be argued henceforth as seen fit by me. The End.

You accept these terms by not taking down your game servers indefinitely.