Defense Team Misordering

When setting a defense team with fewer than five heroes, the team presentation for players attempting to raid it does not reflect the hero positioning in the team editing menu (below, image 1).

IMAGE 1:

The intent of leaving gaps in the defense is to force an unknown for the middle position; because the display centers the heroes on the defense during offense team selection, it is not possible to tell which is in the middle position (in this case, Kunchen or Guinevere), which creates potential color mismatches (below, image 2).

IMAGE 2:

The issue is that the vacant position is not actually ordered correctly in the defense as players encounter it (below, image 3). From the original defense specified in the edit screen, Alberich should occupy the second position from the left, not the far left position. At a guess, the issue is that team order is filled from left to right, not accounting for deliberate gaps elsewhere.

IMAGE 3:

I realize this is a relatively minor issue, however it is still important to consider for deeper strategy and defense development. Please let me know if you have any questions regarding either the strategy or the positioning issues, and I’ll try my best to reproduce it.

1 Like

I’ve replicated the issue, on the revenge for the above.

The defense was specified to have an empty slot at the far left (below, image 1):

IMAGE 1:

However, on battle initiation, the ordering automatically shifted to the left, leaving the open slot to the far right (below, images 2-3).

IMAGE 2:

IMAGE 3:

I got two questions:

  1. why leave a hero out?
  2. how could ninjamoe and you fight each other and share pics?
1 Like

The team appears to always get stacked from left to right. The third-most hero from the left is, therefore, always the tank.

3 Likes

Well, yeah. That’s the issue I’m looking to have resolved. I specified an empty slot for the left end, and it did not position my defense as indicated, and also did not tell me my defense would be different than the one specified. I also noted this in the original post:

That is covered in the intent paragraph in the original post (2nd one from the top).

I raided myself into the top 10 where I would be easier to find (you draw raid targets within ~300 +/- of your score, so with a much higher score, there are fewer potential targets), then logged off while he rerolled raid targets until he found me. I would love to have a way where alliance members could practice against each other, but alas, while already suggested, this has yet to be realized.

1 Like

But you are in the same alliance, I always thought it was impossible to raid someone from your own alliance?

I would probably not fight against you because I only get 4 heroes for my chest and if I want to raid you I would choose my best mono anyway. What is your experiance so far with this strategy?

At the time he raided me, he was not in my alliance. Revenges are not restricted; it is possible to revenge someone in your alliance if they join after having raided you, which is the case in the second example provided.

2 Likes

That is a discussion for a different thread. I’m simply looking to have the misordering issue resolved here, not a more in-depth tactics discussion. You can find me on discord (the Seven Days Gaming server to start) for a more in-depth tactics discussion.

1 Like

I see. I interpreted your post (charitably, apparently) as pointing out this behavior as a potential issue affecting people on offense. Sounds like you have clarified: your objective is to try to exploit what you perceive as a flaw in the opponent display process before a raid to gain an unfair advantage in the upcoming fight.

That strategy apparently doesn’t work. I’m not sure why you would interpret the collapsing of the team to a centered position in the display–with no gaps–as “by design,” but the selfsame collapsing out of the gap on the field at battle time as some sort of bug.

2 Likes

The point he is trying to make is that by using 4 people they will have to guess which one will be the tank. This is a strategy… not an unfair advantage. If anything, having 4 heros is favorable to the attacker. I do not see this as a exploit/unfair advantage in the upcoming fight, but a “new” strategy. I feel it should be slotted as shown on our placement selection, and by deceiving the enemy into guessing who the tank may be, is a perfect example of breaking the “norm” of raiding strategies.

1 Like

Display issues aside, if the heroes don’t appear in the spot that you selected on the team setup screen, that clearly sounds like a bug to me. If the game defaults to filling from the left, then @Petri or @mhalttu should let us know that is a game design choice, and not a bug, and this thread can be closed without resorting to subjective value judgments.

Truth. 4 heroes is a pretty acute disadvantage, actually. The benefit gained from the open slot (and purchased with reduced autoattack damage and an open lane for ghosting tiles) is the tank ambiguity, which adds an element of unknown into how the opponent goes about selecting his/her offensive team composition. It’s not even that large of an advantage, when you can determine the tank is one of two colors and take a 3-2 that covers both of them. But…it helps to break some of the stacking dominance against specific tanks. You can take a purple-heavy 4-1 against Guinevere with a lot of success, but that purple-heavy 4-1 may not fare as well against a surprise Hel or Kunchen. It adds uncertainty, and honestly, that’s what raids need to be more interesting at this point.

1 Like

I guess there’s a few things happening here…

  1. is this working as intended, or truly a bug? You definitely identified something quirky. Just would need official input as to whether it’s as intended or not.

  2. I would question whether this is a truly viable strategy. I would -think- that having 1 less hero makes a defense team truly unviable regardless of the possible tank advantage thing.

This doesn’t mean it isn’t a bug, potentially, BUT if it is not a viable strategy, then should lower the importance of fixing the ‘bug.’

At any rate. Good catch :slight_smile: personally I hope it’s working as designed because I would hate to see any development time spent fixing this. And it seems quirky enough that I think it’s ‘cool’

The team is shown collapsed (but centered) on the display, and in fact appears on the field with the missing spot collapsed out as well. There is no reason to suppose the designers ever intended gaps to be maintained in a defensive configuration, since nowhere are they maintained.

Nor is there any reason to suppose the designers intended the positioning or composition of the defensive team to be a surprise.

2 Likes

The intent is to point out that the defense my opponents encounter is not the one I set in my edit screen. If they want to fix the display to identify open slots, that’s fine, and also a separate issue. I’ll also point out that “exploit” is a loaded term here. Playing the game is not exploitation. If, say, I discovered a flaw in which I could tap my screen in a shamrock pattern and auto-win the match, or spend infinite gems? That’s an exploit. Using synergistic hero specials, arranging my defense in patterns based on logical reasons, and recognizing that there is ambiguity in a display function is playing within the rules, and certainly not exploitation.

As discussed above, it’s hardly an unfair advantage either. It’s a valid tradeoff, sacrificing an open ghosting lane, autoattack damage, and potential special damage in exchange for tank ambiguity that might influence how an opponent constructs an offensive team.

Well, the display is automatic, and assumed to be working as intended. The fact the defense the opponent encounters is NOT the one that I set in the edit screen certainly does not appear to be designed, otherwise there would be an error message of some sort like you get when you try to set a war defense with fewer than 5 defenders, or at the minimum when I hit apply, it would autocorrect to the actual defense opponents encounter.

2 Likes

Incorrect. Gaps are maintained on the right, as with current 4-hero defenses. Leaving the right corner vacant produces the same defense for the opponent as the one specified in the edit screen. I’m not trying to interpret developer intent…because they can just tell me the intent, here. That’s the point of this whole thread. I don’t think you should try to interpret their intent either, as that’s a bit, idk, non-neutral for a moderator to do.

3 Likes

I faced 1 hero defenses sometimes and this hero was centered. I faced a 3 hero def on a tournament and those were also centered.

That neglects that gaps are always right.

Probably heroes will be placed centered and even numbers of heroes couldn’t be centered mirrorish.

No def without a tank. A single hero def is a tank only def.

The defense literally always collapses left. So of course leaving the right corner open will produce a gap at the right corner. There’s no hero to collapse into that gap.

Were you imagining that the team would suddenly get collapsed to the right instead just to thwart you?

Cookie Settings