Defense Meta

Not sure where to put this so just kickin off a new thread and can be put wherever mods decide it fits best.

Telluria & Vela Adjustments

Telluria and Vela are still, once again based both on our metrics and player feedback, too powerful when compared to the other top tier heroes. Despite the previous balancing passes, their use rate on Diamond Tier raids is much higher than what it should be. We believe that even the best heroes should not be present in the notable majority of defense or attack formations – and Telluria is, at worst, present in three out of four defense formations!

To address the issue we’re making further adjustments to the Special Skills of Telluria and Vela. These changes are necessary for the game balance and if they are not effective enough, we will continue doing similar changes in the future too.

so with all that being said by SG

My teammates and I are discussing future defense options

well someone asked what will happen if we choose heroes that become commonly used in defenses again and make up the majority of the leaderboard and top war defenses

will SG nerf those heroes as well? is it something worth keeping in consideration?

i actually tossed around the idea of seein what would happen if the leaderboard was filled with Aife defenses just to see if they’d nerf her too lol but don’t think i could be convincing enough to get people to go through with it

anyways just curious if players are keepin the "well if too many use this hero, it’ll become :poop: " possibility in mind when looking at defense changes

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I don’t think most people will put telly vela on defense again at current situation right now. Try it ur self, they are easier to beat right now. Even with five 4* red stacking can kill telly vela now where previously this is 100% impossible things to do.

People who still use Telly vela right now i think only the whales where they have +20 emblems and lv.30 troops. (And it still beatable right now)

Majority of telly vela owner doesn’t have that luxury.

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Unless anyone else knows differently, this is currently a new aspect of the saga to consider.

My initial thoughts are, that unless the top 100 unite to experiment, there is no clear line of succession for Telluria and the defence meta will splinter.

I expect SG to be rather more timid when releasing new tank options in the future, certainly there isn’t much buzz around zulag.

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It’s pretty undeniable that originally Telly,
All by herself…
Was a one… uh… tree lady army.

The skill was gross the stats were the same as Santa… and the speed was average.

The idea was commendable. Bring Vacant Green into the fold.

And immediately all other tanks disappeared! Whoops… now what?

If all other tanks disappear?

We can hope so right?

Let’s just hope the lesson learned here, is keep super creeps, particularly tanks… off the Hotm list!

But… how nerfed is she? You yourself argued that the saturation was bad for the game.
Isn’t it a bit soon to jump ship?

Telluria still slows.
Still has Santa stats
And still protects her wings and flanks.

I think the balancing act was… ridiculously drawn out but… I blame the speed requirement

not necessarily about nerfed she is but how nerfed she will be

devs have made it blatantly clear they will nerf her as long as players use her so benching her is inevitable

players will be looking for tanks that can replace her who will take 4 mono tiles to kill like she does

i agree optimal defense tanks shouldn’t be hotm

but there will always be a “meta” no matter what, and think it’s a bit silly but somewhat likely devs will continue to nerf it now each time players find it since they are doing that now and players are still playing & spending so there’s no blowback involved for them to do it in the future, only upside of increasing sales of new heroes without having to put in the work of making new heroes better than previous heroes

basically if current route they’ve chosen wasn’t path of least resistance for them, they would have chose a different route

either way i still believe nerfing heroes just because they are used in abundance is not the same as nerfing heroes because they are overpowered

nerfing overpowered heroes, i can agree that’s a balance move in the best interest of the game

nerfing heroes because of how much they’re used is nothing more than a bottomline move to get players to spend on more heroes and abandon what they already spent on

automotive industry comes to mind for some reason:

it’s one thing when automotive companies come out with new technology or better parts to make new cars more appealing than older models

it would be another thing if they removed working parts of your car each time they service it until it’s no longer in working condition and force you to buy a newer model

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Yeah but… if everyone is driving the same car?!..
I’m getting a horse… and riding out!

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This is pretty much exactly how I feel about this. I had already cut back spending, but this move…adjust any hero because they are too much in the top 100, makes me cautious about spending ANY money to obtain heroes which may become too popular. Popular definitely does not equate to OP.

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We can arguabily say that a particulary dominance of a certain hero is already a signal about his/her power.

The problem is when a hero is both powerful and many people land him/her, and Telluria was a first on that.

HotM as we know, are more easy to obtain compared to event/seasonal/season 2/3 heroes. And that’s why Guinevre was “less problematic”.

Good tanks are probably the most desired by people, both because of the “status quo” given by cups and show powerful heroes in your defence, both because wars are probably the most important feature for many people/alliances.

So a super tank reachable by anyone was a great push for summons, consequentially Telluria spawn multiplied.

That’s probably the two condition for something similar to happen again: great tank at HotM position.

If someday this 2 conditions will happen again, we will probably see something like that again.

Supertanks in any other source probably can’t give us this situation.
Yunan was a good example of that.

Just to rare to obtain to be largely used.

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so is this about to become another nerf/buff teÄşluria thread, because that would be a shame.

the game is so much better when there are multiple defensive lineups all being put to use. I have absolutely seen a difference in the defense teams above 2600 the past few days. A lot more variety and a lot of people returning to Ursena.

that all said, I think the problem at the moment is just the general lack of tanks in this game, there really aren’t enough. if each color had 2-3 tanks with at least 1 always being accessible (affordable), then the game would have a lot more variety of quality defenses.

Right now the tanks in the game are:

Purple: Ursena, Kunchen (Malosi counters)
Yellow: Guin (seshat counters)
Green: Telluria, (maybe) costumed Kadilen
Blue: Aegir (very weak though)
Red: BK (very susceptible to dispell), GM (maybe obsolete as a tank these days given c Sonya quick cure)

That is about it… unless somebody really thinks Justice is still relevant?

Does anybody truly believe that this extremely limited group of tanks makes sense from a gameplay perspective? From a spend chase perspective, sure, but from a, let’s all defeat 40 heroes a day and not feel bored perspective, no way.

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What about C. Vivica in yellow?

And Heimdall is Supreme green tank, I think.
Also notable greens are Atomos and Frigg.

And in November Odin will be in yellow.

Nope hahaha, I definitely don’t believe it does.

After the initial Vela rebalancing that removed “extra dmg to red”, I already thought Vela wasn’t necessarily the best blue flank to a green tank. I think the initial rebalancing made Vela a worse flank on defense but a better offensive hero.

IIRC, the most recent nerf to Vela was decreasing her attack down from -34% to -24%, which isn’t nearly as significant as the initial rebalancing. Again, she definitely isn’t as formidable on defense as initial release, especially with so many counters available.

Regarding Telluria, I still think he can suffice as a top tier tank, given that there are deadly flanks (not DoT like Vela). Telly still dishes out -24% mana gen with minor heal at average speed, thus buying time for flanks/wings to fire. I have considered switching to Heimdall tank, but at slow speed, I’m not sure he would statistically contribute to more successful defenses than Telluria tank.

Personally, I’ve never had Vela so my defense has always had Telluria flanked by C.Magni and GM. My Telluria is currently only +12, but I’m holding off on giving more emblems just to see how the meta changes. I think green tanks will still be the meta in wars. Moving forward, I think we will still see Telluria tanks, just flanked by a different blue hero. Besides BK, I don’t think there is another Average speed hero who can tank as well as Telluria.

hmm

every color has that i believe.

but every color has a best

then there’s a best of the best

and guess what people will always use if they can?..

there will always be a best.

so starting a nerfathon everytime players use the “best” available is ridiculous and this sets a precedent to do that very thing.

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Barring all slow tanks, for some baffling reason

I feel like Ice only has one. Aegir
And he isn’t in my roster :pensive:
There are some, meh…substitutes but…
Those are more meh than subs imo

The nerfathon or whack-a-mole or on-going balance, has been active since long before Telly. I’d like to give it another month or two and see how it plays out.
When the raid formations change, the solo tank made become void anyway…

I think there are non-tank heroes (subjective) that get used as tanks like heimdall, c vivica, drake, hel, etc.

@Rigs quantity plus accessibility plus viability. we definitely don’t have enough accessible tanks that are viable for each color. the big reason why telluria was so widely used was because she was accessible and viable.

I would argue that Aegir is almost impossible to get now and he also isn’t viable, except for blue tank war defense lineups.

I just think, not as a limited window, but perhaps as a series of gameplay missions, if everybody in the game could earn 2 relevant tanks from 2 different colors, we would have such a healthier and more enjoyable pvp eco system.

Would it break the balance? not really, the tanks, could be for the most part, niche to being tanks.

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LOL, I had a similar idea with Richard…but aife would be a good test too. Would be too hard to get people on board though I would love it if it could happen.

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But part of the problem I am having with the precedent this nerf is setting (and not specifically telly/vela) is that no matter what color or tank is popular, it will be very visible in the top 100 because that is what the people top alliances will use. Are they going to nerf everything that is popular, because the wording they used in their explanation sounds a lot like that. This particular nerf is a little different than the past rebalancing they’ve done IMHO, though admittedly I haven’t paid attention to that in the past adjustments with other heroes.

Does it mean that they will do more rounds of nerfs because I can’t afford to switch emblems at the moment?

And, FWIW I actually do believe small rebalancing is needed from time to time.

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exactly what i was getting at.

until players stop using 2 popular heroes, the answer seems to be yes. not 2 broken unbeatable overpowered heroes. just 2 popular heroes.

as long as players use heroes that still make money in the summons portals, then we should have nothing to worry about tbh.

event heroes and gm wont see any changes anytime soon since they’re what rakes in the dough for their given portals

no money left to be made from tell/vela.

it actually won’t surprise me if SG continues to buff s3 heroes to increase sales and popularity then drop the nerf hammer once too many have them and the portal has run it’s course which is more/less what I’m tryin to bring to light.

wouldn’t bother pulling for s3 until s3 portal is long passed it’s prime to see hopefully final versions of current heroes. and definitely wouldn’t bother maxing any current or future hotm until you’re absolutely positive theyre so bad in defense that no one wants to use them and they’ve dodged the nerf hammer.

@Petri

is this the course you guys hoped players would follow after this :poop: show? cause honestly i can’t see any other logical way to treat newly released or future heroes after all this. seems it’s either be overly cautious and let mats & heroes stack to the ceiling unused or go ahead and spin the wheel of death hopin it’s not a hero i just maxed that gets chopped down to nothing in coming months…

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As long as the heroes you use come from recurring events there will be no nerfs. SG won’t kill their golden geese after all.

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