Deciding where to spend your class emblems - Tourney update 2019-Mar [Math, Analysis]

[Rigs]

Do you think Frida will remain average mana?

[madmarv]

@BarryWuzHere

It would take a LOT of improvement to Agwe to give him value except as food for another Grimm. Or what am I missing?

Wide AoE at average speed and you need to keep in mind to compare him to other 4-star hitters. His raw SS attack adds up to 6517 across 5 targets. Little John and Skittles are 6854 and 6734 respectively, Colen is 6552 + DoT kicker and all of those are at slow speed. Danza hits for 7464 about 1/3rd of the time at Average speed. Agwe also has the potential to hit even harder if you can use the Lagoon family bonus.

Agwe won’t bring down the house himself, but if you want to compete in the weekly raid challenges, he does come in handy. One of the battle effects makes all heroes’ SS charge at Very Fast rates. That makes LJ and Skittles OP and Agwe’s green def buff finally becomes an asset.

I can now see a Kiril + Grimm + Agwe combo being fairly valuable in a raid. It’s just hard to say whether that will be more advantageous than 3 snipers though.

[BarryWuzHere]

@Gryphonknight

4* heroes are the back bone of empires

You have a point, but I’d like to suggest further nuance to it, that they are the backbone for the longest phase of the game.

@Kerridoc

For mid-tier players, though, the math is pretty straightforward: use ~1500 emblems to create three 4+19 or one 5+19. (Step 20 is stupid expensive and for most classes should be skipped.) A 4+19 is pretty close to a cuurent maxed 5*, which is to say really good. Adding three “quasi-5*” to your roster probably does more than adding one quasi-6*.

More along these lines.

The game has a natural progression. You start with 2* heroes because that’s all you have. (Except Bane) You rapidly move on to a 3* rainbow team, then perhaps a second 3* rainbow team, then a 4* rainbow team, a second 4* rainbow team, and then working toward a 5* rainbow team.

I advise new players who spend a lot of gems summoning heroes or have insanely good luck early to sit on their 5* heroes until they’ve maxed a 4* set or two, even if they have a roster full of 5* heroes waiting.

If you started the game with emblems, it might make sense to enhance a few 3* heroes with them, and enhancing 4* heroes sounds like a very good idea.

I’m probably on the cusp where I would be wiser to give emblems to my top 4* heroes. (I have 9.5 maxed 5* heroes today) Let me play this out, using emblems with the same progression I just outlined above for heroes. IDK exactly how fast we’ll get emblems; my ballpark assumption that I’ll get emblems to max a 5* (per class) in six months. That means two months to do the same to a 4*

Two months later consider the two cases …

1. 4*+19 done … I’ve just added another 10 heroes to my roster that are at 5* strength.
2. 5* + 6 … ~1/3 done … I’ve got ~10 heroes a bit stronger, still not maxed.

Four months later …

1. Two sets of 4*+19 done – my roster now has 20 more heroes at ~5* strength, enough for all my war attacks. Well over that as I’ll have finished some 5*s too)
2. 5* +13 ~2/3 done

Six months later (Optimistically guessing I will get 10 more 5* heroes maxed in that time)

1. 10 5*+6, 20 4*+19, ~10 5*+0 and a pile of 4*+0 and 5*'s stuck at 3/70
2. 10 5*+19 heroes, ~10 5*+0, and a pile of 4*+0 and 5*'s stuck at 3/70

And if I find myself with serious buyer’s remorse, that’s what reset tokens are for. Now that I write that up, I’m almost wishing I’d given my first barbarian emblems to Grimm instead of Gravemaker!

[Gryphonknight]

Not wrong

@BarryWuzHere

You have a point, but I’d like to suggest further nuance to it, that they are the backbone for the longest phase of the game.

You are not wrong.

However, a good Empire user is a flexible user ( see notes ).

Progression

@BarryWuzHere

You rapidly move on to a 3* rainbow team, then perhaps a second 3* rainbow team, then a 4* rainbow team, a second 4* rainbow team, and then working toward a 5* rainbow team

Personally I prefer three rainbow 4* 3.60 before one rainbow 4* 4.70 and thirty 4* 3.60/ 4* 4.70 heroes before my first 5* 3.1 hero ( yes, yes, I broke this rule for Perseus - crushes during Field Aid ( WR ) - and Joon - fast mana speed, high attack rating colorless sniper with strong, powerful, long accuracy debuff on defense team - but do what I say not what I do. See Sigrunn 1*+20 ).

Rumor has it some beta testers just reset their emblems on 4*/ 5* heroes and used them on 3* heroes. Many betas give you free infinite resets, but this probably means you should hold on to at least one of each 3* hero, and save any leveled 3* heroes you have.

At least that is the rumor.

Notes

Be flexible, with Hero XP and emblems

@Gryphonknight

Be flexible

I was going to level Sorcerer Sabina to 4*+1 first, but Devs added emblems to legendary tier completion rewards for challenge events. So I broke my rule of same color leveling. Off color, 1 day, power leveling Proteus from 1/8 4* 1.25 to 4*+3 for the challenge event was painful for me, but worth it ( the loss of -20% Hero XP is balanced by the 3*/ 4* battle items I can save in Legendary tier and use for the 8 of 10 class quests Proteus is banned from entering ).

Even if you plan to take Sonya to 4*+20 ( Paladins are one of the few classes that get a huge benefit from the last node ), your can always stop spending emblems on Sonya, or even reset her class as others have mentioned.

Reset costs

While I very strongly disagree with Devs over their implementation of emblem resets, it is what it is.

But you CAN reset emblems, so at least take Sonya to 4*+1. My Scarlett 4*+3 evaded a Sartana Deathstrike, which my Rigard cleansed, and I laughed out loud. Sonya 4*+1 triggering Protect 1 or 2 turns before a Deathstrike would significantly reduce the initial damage ( +25% defense for 2 turns can be huge )

Sonya 4*+1 may not get a lot of +Defense, but if you play Empires long enough, it will happen, and more than once. One of the brilliant aspects of talents is the proc rate changes, but the benefit is fixed ( teaching more of the player base about RNG and adding more fun and more players likely to go “Fudge, I am going to try attacking that 5* defense anyway” ).

Edit:

@Gryphonknight

The genius of talents is the proc rate changes but the result stays the same.

Evade proccing has the same effect no matter the nodes activated.

I laughed out loud when my - then 4*+1 Rogue Scarlett - evaded Sartana’s Deathstrike which I then cleansed with my fully charged Rigard.

Probability

A Scarlett with zero emblems can not Evade.

But a Scarlett Rogue 4*+1 has a chance. Given how much time I play Empires, Scarlett will proc.

Would she proc more with more nodes, sure. Are some of the talents more powerful than others, yes. Do some talents buff some heroes more than others - see above plan.

But a non zero chance buffs many characters since Empires is a grindy game, not a crossword puzzle. Though a Crossword puzzle MMO would be another case altogether.

[Aviendha]

I get your points on why you think it’s better to spend emblems on 4s first, but to do that doesn’t make sense to me. I have only 5 fully leveled 5s with 2 in progress to max and 18 fully leveled 4s. I have almost all 4’s in the game at 3.60 or better. Yet there is almost no activity where I don’t select a team of mostly 5s. So I’m going to give my emblems to the hero’s I use the most - 5s and some of the 4’s I always use like Rigard. I know it will take a LOT longer to get them to max, but even in your scenario you are going to max them eventually… so why not max the heroes you use the most first?

Edit- don’t know why or how it italicized some of the text, I didn’t do it.

[zephyr1]

@Aviendha

Edit- don’t know why or how it italicized some of the text, I didn’t do it.

Unfortunately for all of us, in Markdown, one of the formatting syntaxes the Forum supports, asterisks around text are one of the ways to italicize — so sometimes the 4 sorts of things get interpreted as italics.

[Gryphonknight]

Firmatting ( WTfire autocowreck? )

@zephyr1

asterisks around text are one of the ways to italicize — so sometimes the 4 sorts of things get interpreted as italics.

It needs a space
20 spaces

@Gryphonknight

Spaces and asterisks

5*s = 5 s
So add a space after asterisk
5* s = 5* s
To prevent formatting

Edit:

Emblems, and hero XP, to get more emblems

@Aviendha

Yet there is almost no activity where I don’t select a team of mostly 5 s. So I’m going to give my emblems to the hero’s I use the most - 5 s and some of the 4’s I always use like Rigard.

That is cool, whatever makes you happy.

I am leveling Aegir to 5* 2.60, Khagan to 5* 2.60 and Sabina to 4*+X even though I prefer leveling other heroes.

But I am concentrating leveling and emblems on heroes that will help me complete class quests because the less 3* / 4* battle items I use, the less farming for 3* / 4* ingredients I have to do.

My second priority is heroes that will help me get all three tier completions in Challenge events, more emblems.

Challenge Raids

Challenge raids are rumored to be just starting in Beta Testing. So far one event allows 5* heroes, while one only allows 3* Heroes.

I very strongly disagree with the Devs emblem reset policy, but it is what it is.

You might consider only leveling heroes to X*+1 until it goes live ( rumor says the first testing is the skeleton of the Devs intention with huge gaps in the programming).

[AndyBSG]

@Kerridoc

I view that choice as somewhat intentional – e.g. help Elkanen out some by making him one of the few clerics, so people may consider leveling him to have a good home for their Cleric emblems.

That’s a pretty terrible design decision if that is the case.

“These heroes suck and no one is using them, should we look into why and possibly buff them a bit?”

“No, let’s just put all the junk heroes in the same classes so people are forced to play with heroes they don’t like or think are very good just to use up their emblems”

Class balance at the moment is really broken.

Every class should have had at least 1 4* or 5* healer but we have Barbarian, Rogue and Paladin classes with no healers.

This makes the Trial Of Survival very difficult without any healers eligible for this class and the strength one only has Boldtusk as the single available healer.

That pretty much leaves anyone outside of the whales having to carpet bomb using items.

I’ve only been successful in completing a lot of the trials so far because I have quite a lot of HOTM, Event and Atlantis heroes.

All of those required cash so harvesting emblems through the trials really is just giving the cash players even more of an advantage, not levelling the playing field a bit in favour of F2P players.

[BarryWuzHere]

@Gryphonknight

5*s = 5 s
So add a space after asterisk

You can also say 5\*s to trick the forum into making the asterisk just be an asterisk instead of adding a space. (The keyboard instincts of somebody who has used a unix-ish command line long enough to be used to escaping things with a backslash served me well in the forums one day!)

[Otto0000]

@Gryphonknight

Rumor has it some beta testers just reset their emblems on 4*/ 5* heroes and used them on 3* heroes. Many betas give you free infinite resets, but this probably means you should hold on to at least one of each 3* hero, and save any leveled 3* heroes you have.

Yes, Keep and train up at least 1 of every 3* hero. I’ve told people this for a very long time. Hardly anyone listens though. As far as resetting emblems to place them on 3*: Yes, that is happening in beta. But before you get all excited and emblem up your newly saved 3* heroes, you may want to be aware that Each time beta restarts, it restarts from the point your account is currently sitting.

This means that the re-allocation is in a temporary account that will never translate to their regular account. You also must consider that , in beta, we have unlimited resets. So even if the reset had any sort of permanent effect, which it does not, it is easy enough to reallocate all of the emblems again.

[Alaska]

Otto0000
Yes, Keep and train up at least 1 of every 3* hero. I’ve told people this for a very long time. Hardly anyone listens though. As far as resetting emblems to place them on 3*: Yes, that is happening in beta. But before you get all excited and emblem up your newly saved 3* heroes, you may want to be aware that Each time beta restarts, it restarts from the point your account is currently sitting.

I believe beta is also currently testing the weekly raid events where you can only raid with 3 and 4 star heroes. This may be another reason why the emblems are getting reallocated to 3 star heroes.

@Gryphonknight kudos on this posting. This a great thread with a lot of perspectives on how to allocate emblems. I worked on a sheet that uses @SolemnWolf 's damage calculations and allows you to look at stats before and after emblem use from each branch of the talent tree and see how the stat improvements theoretically carry over to tile damage dealt and received, number of tiles until your hero is killed or until they kill an enemy hero. This is what I found.

By and far having a maxed 5*+20 is a game changer. The probability of the talent occurrence will be high enough to cause some serious headaches during raids and wars. With that said the drop rate of emblems is so low that it will take over half of a year to get your 5* maxed.

Having a 4*+20 provides stats comparable to your 5 star heroes. The 4 star heroes with % damage special skills will show noticeable improvements when used in raids. Personally I use 4 star heroes in raids and war vs full 5 star team as I am sure many others do with great success. Considering you can max three 4 star heroes for every one 5* makes a solid argument to allocate those resources to your epic heroes who are highly rated and versatile (Wilbur, Wu, BT, Hansel, etc). I have used emblems on Grimm and Rigard. Grimm comes in handy vs GM tanks and I chose to add attack which helps vault stacked damage and boosts his special skill damage. Grimm is also great for events. Rigard is another hero I used emblems on as his talent dodges Guin’s special leading to longevity in raids and war attacks.

Personally I would not advise using them on 3* heroes unless you are F2P and newer to the game. That is just my opinion and I am sure others have their own reasoning on why they should use them on 3* . The biggest mistake I have seen is using emblems on heroes you currently have for the simple purpose of just using the using the emblems to have a hero with talents. @Gryphonknight made a great point that you can hold onto these as long as you want; like troops they have no cap. Waiting to apply them to the correct hero is a far better move then spending them in the short term… this game is not a short term, happen fast game and requires a lot of patience. I would also suggest waiting until SG release app version 20. There are likely to be hero boosts/buffs and nerfs in that version that may impact your decision.

Kudos again!
Below are three photos showing attack and defense calculations for BASE stats before talents, ATTACK focused talent, and DEFENSE focused talent.

BASE STATS

ATTACK STATS

DEFENSE STATS

[Otto0000]

@Alaska

I believe beta is also currently testing the weekly raid events where you can only raid with 3 and 4 star heroes. This may be another reason why the emblems are getting reallocated to 3 star heroes.

You are mostly right. I think there are some raid events with 5* heroes, but with limitations such as: No Holy heroes or Healing has no effect.

The point I was actually trying to make was that the reallocations are only temporary because beta accounts are temporary. They can freely reallocate all of the emblems, lose emblems in the transfer and when beta reboots for the next session, your real account gets recopied over. That means that the reallocation, in effect, never occurred as the changes were made on a temporary account and not on your real account. When the next beta session starts, all of the emblems will be back where they were prior to you reallocating them to the 3*. This is why people are doing it. There are no permanent losses or effects from doing so.

In beta you can literally feed all of your heroes to Aife and when the next session starts, you’ll have all of your heroes again.

[Gryphonknight]

Resets want to be free…

…or at least on a timer.

@Otto0000

There are no permanent losses or effects from doing so.

I understand why Devs chose the reset system they choose. I just very strongly disagree with it.

There is inventory management due to game play, or storage limitations, but in my opinion their decision actually cost them monetization by making it so difficulty, accident prone, restrictive, and frankly not fun.

My hope is this topic will mitigate some of the damage their emblem reset choices have caused.

[Alaska]

Talent Tree Evaluation Sheet

All, Below is a link to my talent evaluation spreadsheet that I am sharing with everyone on this forum. I decided to post it after reading @Gryphonknight 's guide to talent classes and wholeheartedly agree that the emblem and reset system is structured to consume gems and facilitate more spending. The spreadsheet will allow you to compare the benefits of choosing attack vs defense stats, and shows tile damage vs a dynamic defense team as well as tile damage vs your hero or your defense team. Th…

Here is a link to a new thread I started. I uploaded my talent spreadsheet for you all to use. If it saves one person gems from not having to reset a hero then it is a win.

[Gryphonknight]

Subject
Tourney update

I have updated this topic with Tourney information.

@Gryphonknight

Raid Tournament / Tourney

Update:

[Konijntje]

Up until now, I was just using my emblems on my most used heroes, most being 5* and a few 4* s (wu, falcon and boldtusk).
Since I have no problem completing any part of the game as it is (I am level 63 and even as c2p that means quite a big roster of maxed 4 and 5* s).
Now, I am thinking about saving up for raid tournaments, use them on my defenses there (in beta you earned defense points) and getting a chance to get a high ranking and earning new emblems.
So, sort of spreading them out to progress faster in gaining them. Does that make any sense? Lol, anyone else having the same idea?

[Gryphonknight]

Tourney defense teams

@Konijntje

So, sort of spreading them out to progress faster in gaining them. Does that make any sense? Lol, anyone else having the same idea?

This should probably be its own topic, but some things to consider.

Prizes

Rumors say the prizes will be random. Just like you can get 3x Emblems from a rare chest or 50x Emblems from a rare chest, the Average emblems per day from Tourneys is going to suck. Even if you finish Top 1%, you are likely to get 20x Emblems - the most common Top 1% Emblem prize rumored in Beta - which is 2.85x Emblems per day.

Ranking

Rumor says the current plan is zero re rolling. So luck will play a large part in your ranking. This is awesome for shaking up the top 10,000 spots - in the case of Tourneys probably the Top 1% depending on participation - but sucky from a Return On Investment for Emblems.

Paywall

Rumor says tournaments will eliminate colors. If your roster is heavy on purple heroes, and purple are banned that week, you will not be doing well. Since Wu Kong, Wilbur and Proteus are such powerful RNG paywall, and gem paywall, heroes, Tourneys banning them will have a big shake up.

This is why I am so excited about 1* / 2* Tourneys since none of the heroes are behind a RNG paywall, or gem paywall.

Emblem reset

I strongly disagree with the Devs reset decisions. But it is what it is.

If you do not like Tourneys, or your roster is bad at Tourneys, you will have used your Emblems on five heroes requiring 5x reset Emblems.

With one exception.

IIRC from my Sigrunn 1*+20, For 1*+1 to 1*+9 you receive all your Emblems back for 1 gem. While 1*+20 returns 19 - a loss of 1 Emblem - for 2 gems.

Opportunity costs

So I am excited to create 2x rainbow 1* teams - usable in 1* / 2* Tourneys - and 1x rainbow 2* teams - usable in 2* Tourneys. Eventually bring them up to 1*+15 and 2*+15.

This will allow me to be competitive in 1* / 2* Tourneys with the lowest Emblem investment. Since the Prizes are the same, but using the lowest opportunity cost, I increase my average profits.

Future proof

While no guarantee, I do not see the Devs adding more 1* / 2* heroes, so my sunk cost will be future proof.

3* / 4* true levels

Due to true levels, there is a nature break point between 3* / 4 * heroes.

A 2*+20 hero has roughly the raw stats of a 7/8 3* 3.50 hero. But a 3*+20 has roughly the raw stats of a 4* 3.60 hero.

So a 2*+15 hero will be useful in some 3* Tourneys. But a 3*+15 or 3*+20 hero will be significantly less useful in a 4* Tourney.

It is highly likely the Devs will introduce X*+40 in the future, but depending on how it is done, the investment costs and resulting stats are unknowable at this time.

Notes

@Gryphonknight

My Sigrunn 1*+20 has a higher power than a 3* Trainer hero.

My Layla 2*+20 has a higher power than my 7/8 3* 3.50 Nashgar.

My Bane 3*+20 almost has a higher power than my Melendor 4* 3.60 ( with the difference in true levels, that was to be expected ).

[Konijntje]

I was wondering about starting a new topic, but since you updated with raid tournaments, I thought it might fit.

Maybe @zephyr1 can split the topic?

@Gryphonknight

Even if you finish Top 1%, you are likely to get 20x Emblems - the most common Top 1% Emblem prize rumored in Beta - which is 2.85x Emblems per day.

I don’t remember the numbers from the last version, but I thought chances were better for more and maybe they changed it from our feedback

@Gryphonknight

Paywall

Rumor says tournaments will eliminate colors. If your roster is heavy on purple heroes, and purple are banned that week, you will not be doing well. Since Wu Kong, Wilbur and Proteus are such powerful RNG paywall, and gem paywall, heroes, Tourneys banning them will have a big shake up.

This is why I am so excited about 1* / 2* Tourneys since none of the heroes are behind a RNG paywall, or gem paywall.

I think this is only true for the 5* tournaments. I have every tc20 4* maxed and a few event 4*s, if you play long enough, you’ll collect them from tc20 (it took me almost a year to get my first Grimm, he was my last).

Last beta didn’t have 1 and 2* tournaments, I wouldn’t be opposed to them, but would like a heads up if they are going to be in there (have to prepare ).

@Gryphonknight

If you do not like Tourneys, or your roster is bad at Tourneys, you will have used your Emblems on five heroes requiring 5x reset Emblems.

I like the tournaments, I just didn’t/don’t like the continu fee, this part for me will depend on what made it to the life game (the last version wasn’t as bad as the one before).
So, I’d probably leave the emblems on the heroes for the most part.

@Gryphonknight

So a 2*+15 hero will be useful in some 3* Tourneys. But a 3*+15 or 3*+20 hero will be significantly less useful in a 4* Tourney.

Because of my roster (all 3*s maxed too), this doesn’t matter to me.

Do you really think they’ll do the 1 and 2* tournaments?

[Gryphonknight]

Beta is Beta

All the rumors are Beta rumors.

Alliance War took a long time to settle down and it was twice a week.

Really hard to know until a year of live server since tourneys are once a week.

Especially if the rules are set by RNG instead of a rotation. With RNG rule selection, You could have ten weeks of 5* Tourneys in a row.

Personally I would not mind a tourney twice a week or daily.

1* / 2* Tourney

@Konijntje

Do you really think they’ll do the 1 and 2* tournaments?

I will be sad if they do not. Tim seemed to imply they want 1*+20 heroes to be useful:

Emblems are a bit different and may still evolve. That was intended for all heroes of all rarities, something for everyone. We keep looking at feedback on emblems. Emblems are now given very slowly to see how they change the game. We are being very careful with them.(linky, linky)

[zephyr1]

@Konijntje

I was wondering about starting a new topic, but since you updated with raid tournaments, I thought it might fit.

Maybe @zephyr1 can split the topic?

It looks like for where you’re at so far in conversation, this can live here. If this develops enough to warrant its own thread then I’ll be happy to split it off.