Damage Calculation

Very nice work! Thanks a lot… now I have example question… which team will make bigger damage: Grimx3, Triton, Kiril or… 3xLJ, Ohara, Brienne. And why…

What you think?

I love that you Spotfire for this. I worked for them for a long time.

Can someone give me a basic breakdown of damage is dealt? How do the modifiers help both defense and offense?

Looks like the mods moved you over here to the Damage Calculation thread where we could better answer your question.

If you take a look at the first post in this thread, it explains how defense, attack, and modifiers combine to form damage. If there’s anything unclear about that after you look at it, ask away and we’ll be happy to help clarify.

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I, too, after reading this great thread, would like some clarification as to how damage dealt relates to color stacking.

I noticed that in the original damage calculation, the attack values of like-color heroes are simply summed before accounting both for def and weak/strong color adjustments. But i remember when i first started playing, i thought i read (somewhere?) that there was an additional ‘bonus’ applied to color stacks.

Perhaps if i gave an example of what i am thinking of, it will be more clear. Let us say that 3 blue heroes are used, each having an attack rating of 100 attacking a defender with tiles. Let us say that a tile from one of these heroes does 1X worth if damage. Does the same attack with 3 same color heroes do 3X damage, or something like, 3.4X (for example)?

The way i read the damage calculations, it seems it would only be the first, 3X. Is this correct? Hopefully I explained this adequately. Thx in advance.

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That’s a great question that actually ended up getting talked about over here:

Cliffs notes: it’s bigger than 3x because the sum goes inside the exponentiation, but there’s probably some linearization going on that limits the benefit at the high end.

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This is a great thread and should be mandatory reading.
How exactly does damage get applied when there is a minion?

Is it basically once enough damage has been applied to the minion to kill it, the remaining tiles hit the hero and it takes the damage?

The minion is basically just like added health for the hero. So if the hero has 100 health, the minion has 10 health, and you do 25 damage with a single tile, the first 10 damage kill the minion, and the remaining 15 damage reduce the hero to 85 health.

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OK that makes sense since the minion gets no defense

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@Garanwyn, I want to thank you for taking the time to answer my question and point me in the right direction. Its gamers like yourself which makes this forum what it is. Much appreciated, sir!

PS has anyone suggested that perhaps you should be added to the mod team? After reading many of ur posts, i think you have just the right temperament for such an assignment.

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You’re very welcome! And thank you very much for the kind words. I certainly am trying to make the forum as good a place as possible. I’m glad you feel I’m succeeding in some measure.

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OK, I think I followed all the various equations/calculations, but suppose I want to compare my 3-70 Lianna with my 4-50 Caedmon - someone please tell me if I’m on the right track, or if I screwed up somewhere.

First, assume I’m planning to choose just one of these to fill a single-target attack role. I don’t need to figure for defense, because we’ll assume they’d be hitting the same targets, so I can directly compare the attack, defense, etc. as shown.

ATTACK: Lianna 613 vs Caedmon 605
It is NOT accurate to simply divide 613/605=1.013 and say that Lianna does 1.3% more tile damage than Caedmon, right?

Instead, I take (613/605)^1.35=1.01789… so call Lianna roughly 1.8% better in that regard, yes?

If I’m on the right track with that, then it should follow…

SPECIAL - ignoring any “small” buffs and just comparing direct %
EDIT: I initially had (1+5.12) in there, assuming 100%+512% but that was wrong.
Lianna is (613x5.12) - call it L
Caedmon is (605x3.45) - call it C
so (L/C)^1.35 → 1.734, meaning Lianna’s special hits +73.4% harder than Caedmon’s at these stats?

DEFENSE: Lianna 604 def, 1049hp vs Caedmon 607 def, 1075hp
Lianna: 1049*[604^1.35], call it L
Caedmon is 1075*[607^1.35], call it C
so C/L → 1.0312, meaning Caedmon has about 3.1% edge in defensive terms at these stats?

At least, I think I kind of fudged these numbers together in a way that makes sense to me. The defense calculation I did kind of factors in, with all else being equal, the Caedmon with slightly higher defense and slightly higher HP, can take a little more punishment than Lianna… and tries to quantify it.

So… math nerds, where did I screw up? :wink: (I’m kind of a math nerd myself, but sometimes get ideas in my head that don’t make sense, so it helps to have other poke holes in how I’ve conceptualized it. That’s how I learn. :P)

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Nice examples!

You’ve got it all correct except here:

That extra 1 shouldn’t be in the special multiplier. So, for example, Lianna’s special attack power should be 613x5.12.

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Oh, duh… I was thinking “base” was 100% damage, and the special was adding 512% damage. See what I mean about missing something basic? :wink: I’ll revise. Thank you!

I just wanted to make sure that as I was looking at the various equations and trying to compare attack, defense, etc. that I wasn’t just making things up that made no sense.

EDIT to add: So… Lianna hits 73% harder than Caedmon? I guess that’s significant, despite the closeness of their numbers otherwise. That 512% is pretty awesome, eh? :slight_smile:

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You’re welcome. And you’re definitely not just understanding the equation, but using it smartly. Percentage improvement is an excellent way to look at hero comparisons. Being able to separate out the fully exponentiated difference between heroes makes apples-to-apples comparisons much easier.

And yeah, Lianna is a beast :slight_smile: The exponentiation really magnifies the top special percentages.

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I thought the special skills are listed as “512% damage” not 512% attack. So the specials between Lianna & Cademon should be (613/605)^1.3 * (5.12/3.45) = 1.51 → 51% higher.
This matches what I’ve seen from my raid videos…

[it also took me a while to realize that color bonuses only apply to troop attacks. Does not apply to special skills or any attacks from the enemy…]

It would make sense if they did it the way you’re describing. That’s not actually how they did it though. Take a look at the examples section by Solemnwolf upthread:

https://forum.smallgiantgames.com/t/damage-calculation/29624/13

Example number 2 is specials.

And yeah, slash attacks and specials only appear to have color for the purposes of color debuffs. They don’t behave as strong or weak like tile damage. He’s the thread on elemental damage, which covers the question toward the bottom of the first post:

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Im not sure about the calc on specials, it does not appear to be working that way. The damage done to any opponent on the defense side seems to be centered around what the damage would be vs the strongest opponent on the defense team. I’ve done 5 raids now using one specific attacker and avoiding any buffs or talents, and in each case the damage is +/- a few % of the same number, no matter who I hit.

What you’ll find is subtle variations depending on the heroes starting attributes. I developed a sheet to assess emblem allocation and leveling. It uses the above damage equation and incorporates color stacking, troop boosts, etc. I was amazed to see how much the talents improve your heroes… it is pretty dramatic! I pasted an image below that shows a 2.5 tile increase to kill a Richard tank that is fully ascended/talented with a focus on D and health. The attack team is listed as well and is 4:1 color stack with Kiril, Evelyn, Lianna, Tarlak, and Kadilen

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A lot depends on when and how the % boost is applied. If the defense or health % boost of 3% is only applied to base stats (as indicated by the points listed on the in game talent tree) then it wont make as much of a difference. If however the % is added to the troop stats and boosted after subsequent stat upgrades then it does make a bit more of a difference if you talent with D or health stats. A very subtle difference, but a difference nevertheless. For Richard there are a few factors that come into play. One is his actual talent, which is boosting his D stats by 25% for two turns. The more D, the better the stat boost. Another is that he has low health stats. Again, depending on when and how the % health boost is applied, you can eek out a very slight increase if you add an additional health stat in lieu of a D stat.