Classes... which is better... health or defence for Guardian Jackal

[VFROOD]

Normally you don’t have a choice. Until maxed it is as is.

Now with classes you can make choices.

If i take jackal for instance. He got low defence and low health. If i want to make him more durable should i then choose for health or defence or even both?

Attack is clear to me but can someone explain if i have the choice between health and defence which is the best?

[VFROOD]

@zephyr1 i just put jackal as example. … i could have done wu too

[zephyr1]

There are several places you may want to look that have discussed defense/health vs. attack in deciding on Class Talent Grid nodes.

Here are a few of them:

Guardian Jackal talent tree question

I just maxed him out. Would you guys focus on offense or defense in his talent tree? I know he’s a glass cannon so he needs defense. But I also visualize a super glass cannon. Any advice?

Talents: defense points or health points?

So? Increases health by 36 points OR Increases defense by 18 points and why? you can vote too poll

Health or defense

So… What are the pros and cons of accepting +36 health vs +18 defence for classes? (hope this topic hasn’t been discussed yet, sorry if it has) [Screenshot_20190115-000145] As far as I can see: Characters with higher (defense x 2) than health stat and a high defense troop should keep increasing defense to maximise troop buff. 1b) Similarly if your hero uses a health boosting troop and has a pretty high health you should keep increasing health (but in most cases aren’t defense buffs higher…

@arios

but there are exception as Jackal , you dont need more ATK on him , Def + Health is preferable.

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Also:

Wu Kong Talent grid advice (health vs. defence)

Hi everyone I have a question about the path we can take in talent grids. I am working on Wu as he is my main monk. The question is should I choose health or defence? Which one keeps him alive longer against titans?

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[AlexanderTG]

I went with max defence/health. His main use is for his -56% yellow def, not his damage.

[zephyr1]

@VFROOD

@zephyr1 i just put jackal as example. … i could have done wu too

I was trying to make the thread specific enough to be different than those posted above.

If you’re asking in general, there are a few places people have mulled this topic.

Thoughts on thread direction for this one? I can edit again…

[VFROOD]

Ok just read them but not sure whats better. Lets keep jackal then…

[zephyr1]

@VFROOD

Lets keep jackal then…

Sounds good!

Recent feedback has been that a lot of people like having one shorter thread for each hero, so that seems worth trying, especially since there are some that have had broader conversations about the stat directions for each choice in general.

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@VFROOD

Now with classes you can make choices.

My personal take:

I was initially inclined to “fix” shortcomings of heroes via the Talent Grid upgrades — squishy heroes get defense/health, sturdy but low attack heroes get attack buffs.

But ultimately I decided that would just end up with all of them as a middling pile of averaged out mush.

So instead, I’m taking the approach of pumping up intrinsic skills.

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For Jackal, he’s clearly a high attack stat to start — so for me, throw gas on the fire and watch it explode.

Sure, it’s going to burn you sometimes.

He’ll die a lot, just like he does now.

But when he doesn’t die, he’ll do what he does even better than now. And I think that’s the better route.

And even if you go attack at every chance, you’ll still pick up some health and defense along the way.

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@VFROOD

Attack is clear to me but can someone explain if i have the choice between health and defence which is the best?

In general, 1 Defense is worth a bit more than 2 HP, based on the way damage is calculated. And, funny enough, the Talent Grid is set up exactly that way when comparing the numbers.

That tends to favor Defense upgrades.

Now, obviously that’s only true to a point, as @Kerridoc observed:

@Kerridoc

You can run the numbers for any particular hero, given that the damage formula is known. For typical heroes, +1 defense is a bit better than +2 hp. There should be a crossover point at some defense level—consider that a defense of 1500 but HP of 1 would be a weak hero.

Keep in mind that DoT bypasses Défense, though, and many healers restore a % of max HP. So that tilts the decision towards a more balanced def/HP path.

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Some useful observations from others on Defense/Health, curated to be applicable to Jackal:

@AirHawk

Low def heroes (+HP) - doesnt help since most of these heroes are high in offense or HP. That little def bonus wont help much.

@Bocioo

Remember that troops are giving you bonus to HP nad Def. And Def bonus is bigger with using crit troops, mana troops don’t give HP bonus at all, so all troops favor defence over health.

@Garanwyn

For heroes who are going to be in a defense team, almost certainly +defense:

• Tile damage is a large part of the damage that heroes take in raids, and it doesn’t bypass defense
• The defense buff for defenders amplifies that +18 def to +21.6 def. There’s no commensurate health buff, so there’s actually a net benefit to using +def here

For heroes on offense, it’s less clear, since you only get hit with a slash about every 3 turns, and you’re never “stacked” against by any attack from the defense. Since offenses receive fewer–but on average stronger–hits, +health becomes more valuable.

@sleeperZ96BT

My general approach so far has been to use defense on everyone BUT those whose skill is a % healing.

@yelnats_24

When your hero have 500 defense, +18 defense mean 3.6% increase while if your hero have 1000 defense, +18 is just 1.8% increase.

When your hero have 1000 health, +36 health mean 3.6% increase while if your hero have 1440 health, +36 is just 2.5% increase.

That means the increase is higher if you put it on the lower stat, if your hero have high defense low health, health investment will be better, but if your hero have low defense high health, defense investment will be better.

Generally speaking, defense investment is better in most but not all case due to being ^1.35 in damage calculation. I have done some calculation and I found out that health investment will only be better if defense/health ratio is above 0.67 such as in the case of Sonya (almost all hero fall below that point, hence why most of the time defense investment is better).

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And more on the premise of Attack vs. Defense/Health for Jackal, from the other thread on this

@vortexmaster25

I use him most for his special on titan, so boosting his defense to last longer is better for me.

@KLinMayhem

Defense and health definitely

@Deadpond

But if I added right…he would have 882 for attack at the end…that’s insane

@sleeperZ96BT

What makes him special to me is his tile damage, I don’t see the point in changing him from a glass cannon to like a normal card with higher attack but better balanced stats.

I’m planning on keeping my glass cannons just that, with even more firepower

@Deadpond

I’m leaning towards that as well. Plus if you go the attack route on the grid he does get a little extra health and defense. Not to mention the evade

[Ashera]

Totally agree on upping attack on Jackal. He has enough def/health to withstand one hit from my current titans and can make it through a whole titan with a few health pots like all my other heroes. Even if he did die, that nearly 900 attack when fully emblemed will be worth it for tile damage.

[mattp169]

Jakal is an easy one
He has the 13th highest possible attack when maxed with talents, he is a very fast hero, plus the rogue talent will help him survive special attacks.

SO you always choose attack for him simple done, there is only one path possible if you do that.

This takes his attack to 896 which is incredibly high compared to the max defense any hero can have, there’s only 15 heroes who can have a higher defense so that means his tile damage is going to be great against almost any unbuffed hero

[Stargasm]

I’ve been pondering the best route for Jackal as well, and I can’t come to a solid conclusion either way. My Jackal is at 4^70+6, and I’ve taken the defensive path so far.

The way I see it, you just have to decide which of his two best attributes is more important to you… Increase the pure damage by raising his already massive attack stat, or beef up his defense a little with the hopes of getting to fire his special and getting that -54% yellow defense debuff one more time.

This is just my opinion, but since I have several other great yellow heroes to stack Jackal with, I believe there’s a higher potential upside to firing that special an extra time where - without the defense increase - he may have already been taken out.

Of course, when you actually go to put any of this to the test, the board will still be either your best friend or your worst enemy, so I don’t think there’s really a good way to collect reliable data. We may never know which way is truly superior, just gotta go with your gut feeling. Jackal is a great hero, he’ll be even better no matter what route you take.

That’s just my two cents on the matter, feel free to debate/call me out on my bull if you see fit.

[sleeperZ96BT]

I continue to build out attack and health because I use rigard on basically every team and he’s a % health healer. And because titans is all about tile damage and I run two jackals so I can lose one of em

[Elpis]

Hearts and shields are for p*****s

[zephyr1]

@Elpis No, I don’t think Proteus should get hearts and shields, better attack buffs for him.

_{(mind the #forum-rules please)}