Battles still unfairly matched

Thanks for the links - very useful reads for those unfamiliar with the subject. Elo systems like cups have also been discussed extensively in the forum - worth a search if anyone is interested.

Hi.

My point is once again proven to be correct and on top that you chosen to show me an anagram that I know as I am a chess player myself.

Where chess points are given for winning and lossing thus the power of our heros and the actual win point thus the cups we get.

This Elo calculations are calculated using the chess points won and not how many games a player had won.

The Elo chess works as such a win (cups) equals 1 and given 400 points ( hero power) .

No chess match chooses players based on how many games they actually won but instead it’s calculated based on the point attributed by those wins thus requires skill to earn those points.

Where/why there is a difference between associations points score totals is becausevthey each tweek these anagrams differently but all use the same Elo point scoring system thus (team power) and NOT actual amount of wins/loses (cups) as placing opponents against each other based on wins is never a true measure of skill but to earn points requires skill.

Back to our game, the skill in this game is
1, What heros they chose to use for a battle
2, how they go about leveling those heros
3, how they use the tiles and special skills given
4, who they chose to battle against

All of these are measures of skill and all are attributed towards the teams power and not the cups won.

The Elo system is a fair anagram of measuring opponents based on skill but it doesn’t use wins (cups) to measure opponents where as this game does.

Thanks for proving my point.

You:

Wikipedia:
“A player’s Elo rating is represented by a number which increases or decreases depending on the outcome of games between rated players. After every game, the winning player takes points from the losing one.”

Maybe you should correct the wikipedia page before anyone else reads those lies.

No really, I’m giving up on this. Good luck

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You’ve misunderstood how cups are an Elo-type system. Cups are not the equivalent of wins and losses; they are the equivalent of rating points. The system works fine.

OK then, if the Elo system is being used with cups won then it is not truely based on player skill and cups are not a measurement of skill as I stated above they are only a measurement of wins and thus using the Elo system on cups, although the Elo system is working it is not an acceptable skill level measuring system within this game as skill is developed via how a player works with there heros and how they use them the same as it in chess based on the skill used during playing the game not the amount of wins or loses.

The fact that it is used the way it is in this game doesn’t mske it either right or just.

Now if you told me this! “That’s how where using the Elo system because it suits us better weather you like it or not” then that would make so much more sence.

Now don’t misunderstand me, I was never complaining to start with but instead bebating what is found to be an unfair method of measuring raids which is only based on win rations and not true skill even though your hoing to me you skill to win more games when in fact all you really need is a powered up team to slowly beat teams not creating good defense teams which yes you are right it put it in favour of the attacker, no douts
about that.

I don’t need to change it because the Elo system is correct and just it’s not used correctly within this game and again you trying to mske it dound right doesn’t make it or mean that it’s right by any means.

But hey keep on trying to prove me wrong it won’t change facts.

  1. Punctuation is your friend. It is extremely difficult to understand what you are trying to say when you post blocks of text without commas, fullstops or even humble semicolons. I intend to read and understand your posts, but it is becoming tiring.

  2. This being said, I don’t understand your complaint. Elo systems are perfectly fair at ranking players - what exactly is the bit that you think is unfair? That you get matched against players with similar cups totals to you? Fair. That you get many cups for defeating players with more cups than you, and not many cups for defeating players with fewer cups than you? Fair. That stronger heroes will usually beat weaker heroes? Fair.

I’m happy to continue discussing this with you, but I think you might need to put some effort into clearly explaining what it is that you find unfair.

So lets see.

  1. What heroes they choose to use for a battle.

Yes thats team power and unlike chess the power of your team can vary widely.
If you would match after team power we would have a competition in how much money you spend or how much time you spend or how lucky you are because it would be dependent unpon the heroes and how far they were leveled.
If the heroes were well chosen concering synergy, positioning and special abilities would make no difference.

  1. How they go about leveling those heroes.

See one. The difference that is made by skill while leveling seems minimal with the exeption of how you get the necessary ascending materials. ( without looking at money and luck )

  1. How they use tiles and special skills given.

Yes thats the really competetive part and SHOULD be the biggest part of your cup rating.

  1. Who they choose to battle against.

Another important skill that influences your cup rating.

So to put it all together:

The in your eyes most unfair and least skill dependent part which however influences your performance is team power. It’s the tool you work with.
Team composition, use of tiles and special abilities is the competetive part where skills most shine.

So it seems that your perception of unfairness comes from the different tools the players have to use.
That unfortunately is built in in the system and probabely can not be changed.

Interestingly the situation you describe shows that you seem to be a better than average player because
you have to compete against players with better tools than you. :smile:

So in the end the system might not be completely fair ( which I believe would be impossible to do ) but a large part of it ( with the exeption of the tool ) seems to be skill based and fair.

And yes ist a somewhat funny experience when the system proposes a match against a team which is 1000 points stronger than you and consists mostly of almost fully leveled 5* heroes but is in your cup range.

People will always be people and so they will always find a reason to sand bag ( drop cups ) because they are lazy or dont have the time and just want to fill their raid chest.

And here we have found one ( there are some more ) reason why any system will not be completely fair, because there is a strong motivation for the not very competetive player to drop cups so she/he can fill his chest faster.

May your tool improve a liitle bit every day. :slight_smile:

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the comparison is stupid. Imagine a chess tournament, where a rival can choose the chips to play and put 6 ladies and on top of his opponent, who plays with pawns, if he wins, which is unlikely, give him less points than you? This is poorly calculated and is indefensible and cost that I have no problems to endure over 2000.

Chess with ‘chips’ and ‘ladies’? I have no clue what you are trying to say.

And there lies your problem, Understanding.

Maybe you should be a little more carefull with your wording there. :slight_smile:

The elo system is supposed to be used in competitive games to pair opponents.
So its measuring how sucessfull somone plays considering win/loss and opponents strength.

As I wrote in my post we have the problem, that in E&P not all competitors start from the same position.
( This is in a very minor way the same in Chess as white has the first move )

Unfortunately this asymetric starting point for all players cant be changed and as long as you dont come up with a better solution we will have to live with an imperfect pairing system which none the less shows the skill of the player to a certain extent.

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Hi

Although there are different ways this could be looked at and we could all be right as the Elo system was designed and is used within many different gaming platforms it was designed to calculate an average score based on player skill and win ratio thus combining the amount of times a player has won games and the points given during that game and yes in chess skill is measured in a few different ways based on who the organizers set up thier anagrams, but all use it measuring the ratio the same way which is what makes it fair and why it is widely used within sporting associations to determine team position.

For those who don’t see chess as having anything to do with this game please let me give you another scenario. Lets use football instead of chess. A teams score there is made up of many different aspects such as game score, how they played during that game, strikes they have gotten during that game plus a few other factors which is then calculated using the Elo system to determine team positions.

This game is already determined by how much money you spend the more money you spend the chances you have at getting better heros and also being able to buy specials/treasure chest etc all increase your chances of moving up the ranks quicker because (in this case) you can choose to buy ascension mats rather than wait for them.

This means these players are not at the top based on skill but instead based on how much money they spent to reach the top quicker and nothing more, experience doesn’t even come into it.

Lets use an army scenario to discribed what i mean!
You have 2 captains, one has become Captain from the ground up thus having experienced battles weather won or lost and the other went to officers school to learn to become a captain. Which would you rather ho to war with Having been there I already know the answer to that.

So yes skill IS and should be determined based on the power of your team which is made of how much time you put into the game, which heros you level first and what types of teams you create to go against opponents and this has nothing to with cups but has everything to do with skill which like in any game/sport is based on experience and not how much you spend.

The bottom line here is it makes all the difference as this game is raids are based solely on cups and these top ranking players are at the top solely based on how much money they have spent to get there and nothing more. It doesn’t matter how you try to turn this fact around it is a fact of the which has been stated to be true in many other conversations within many forums.

No where the problem lies within this game is that it can’t be seen that a player who works up the ranks using skill to have more cups than a player spending thousands of dollars and that is what it’s all about and nothing more.

That said and going back to the this game using the Elo system. If it is going to say it’s using the Elo system then it should also be calculating opponents based on an average of how many games they won, team power which would then determine how many cups they win or lose which is what the Elo system is designed to do.

Solely using cups is exacltly and only about money and not skill.

Now as I stated in the beginning,
1, I am not complaining but instead debating a wrongly used system (again in my and many others eyes) even if they don’t understand what the Elo system is about.

2, This was never about me personally as I play the game just fine and for a player which only started 3 months ago I am doing quite well to the point the only thing stopping me from getting further ahead is this game ability to supply ascension items making it impossible for me to ascend the many heros I have waiting on these items. But again not complaining or spending the money to achieve these goals quicker which is what the game wants me to do if I want to keep moving up at a decent pace and I totally understand that.

Bates are based on people seeing the same situation in different ways and thus discuss the many different options or thier point of view. It doesn’t necessarily mean either is completely right or wrong as in this case we see how a system like the Elo system is used both knowing it xan be adjusted and used in many different ways and at the end of the day it’s down to what SG want to achive which in this case is making money. UNDERSTANDABLE

But please keep in mind that not all those who play these games are idiots, kids, teenagers or uneducated and in fact I would even go as far as saying that most are average to middle aged working class citizens and many in high level business positions and it’s not because we are not game developers that we are no good at analyzing situations.

Cheers

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AGREED! not enough characters, lol

By heavens, I think I’ve cracked it!

Tough to distill exactly what you are trying to get at from your discursive posts, but the nugget above might tell us something. Are you saying that you think rankings should be a measure only of players’ ability to play the boards, and not of their ability to buy or train heroes and ascension materials, to combine the heroes smartly and select vulnerable opponents? Because if you are, then I think that is a bit silly.

Again, it’s not easy to be certain what this rambling sentence (yes, it’s just one sentence) is trying to say, but I think we can be confident it is wrong. You seem to think the power of your team is somehow a proxy for player skill. Of course, it is not. Team power is a useless metric that is not even a very good proxy for a team’s strength - low power teams can be viciously effective and high power teams can be quite useless.

So how can we measure the true strength of a team, if team power is an awful metric? How about we have them fight each other to see who wins. And let’s award cups to the winner and take cups from the loser, based on their relative starting cup totals. Oh, wait! That’s what we do already! Eureka!

I’ve spent a total of £2.99 and I’ve been top ranked multiple times. This morning I was ranked number 7. So I’m not sure what you’re basing those last paragraphs on, but they’re obviously very wrong.

No, it’s not. You don’t need to know any of that for an Elo system - all you need to know is their rating points (cups). If you’re a chess player, you should know this.

I’m a chess player. My peak FIDE total is 1700 (I’m a little below that now). The joy of an Elo system is that you don’t need to know anything about me - my age, gender, nationality, win-loss record, experience or playing style. All you need to know is that one number. From it you can tell that I’m not a very good player - I’m a club bunny at best. Now I could boast that I have won many more games that I have lost, but you can tell from my 1700 point total that I’ve never beaten anyone good, or if I did then that win has been swamped by losses. I could claim that I’m an expert at playing the Alekhine Defence, but you can tell that it doesn’t translate to much success because, 1700. I could claim to be a master of board psychology, but 1700.

And 1700 lets me match up against opponents. I know I’ll almost certainly be crushed by anyone who has anywhere near 2000 FIDE points, and I’ll destroy anyone with 1500 or fewer unless I do something monumentally stupid. But set me against an opponent with 1800 points and I’ll think I’ve got an outside chance of winning. Set me against a player with 1600 points and I’ll know I might lose.

Cups are the same. Anyone can claim anything about how good they are, but all we really need to do to give us a good indication as to whether we could beat them is compare our cups totals.

This is the essence of your wrongness. Cups are an explicit measure of how well your team performs in raids. This is an amalgam of the strength of your heroes (a factor of luck, spending and selection decisions), how well they complement each other (a combination of judgment, time in the game, luck and spending), opponent selection (mainly a factor of experience and understanding), and pure skill at playing the boards. You’ll note that money spent is an essential influence on a key part of this, but to believe it is the sole driver is not to understand the game at all.

The only thing you’ve cracked here is proving that I am right and that all you can do is twist things around to make it sound right and in favour of what you want everyone to believe. Although you are correct in saying it works like that, this reason is of no consequence to the fact that it shouldn’t be, because the way it is used here is not and never will be a true measure of player skills as cups are nothing more than than a prize for winning and not a skill score although you’d have everyone believe it is.

Everything in my last post still stands as is so no need to repeat myself thus lets just sgree to disagree as this will never go nowhere.

By the way my chess FIDE 1875, playing for 50yrs and my son plays in state finals so yea I reckon I have a fair idea on how the Elo system works and how it was designed to work and doing a random selection based only on cups won isn’t one of them and will never prove players skills and that’s a FACT.

So anyway for purposes of this game it’s the way it is used so I’m agreeing to disagree with that method but it doesn’t bother me personally that I lose or win as I find it fun to play and only play for fun.

Good luck on your triumphs in the game.

Why are all of you talking about things in such complicated manner.

To excel, not only do you need effort but also resources.

Those who can spend and have all 5* maxed heroes gives them a better start. It still depends on the skill, luck and hero composition to get higher trophies. There are tons of players with maxed 5* team and they are nowhere near the top. You need both effort and money to excel at the very least.

You think most players at the top only spend money? They invest a lot of time in researching how to play this game better. Where do you think all the guides come from? If you don’t have the resources, don’t whine about it and make efforts to improve your hardware (heroes) by spending money if you want to take the shortcut.

This sort of game world is one where people have to invest both time and money to get good. If you want fair game, best to just play single player games and not play with others or play single payment games (where to get good equipment and level by just grinding).

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Magnus Carlson’s current FIDE rating is 2842, so you are claiming to have more rating points than the world champion (some might argue the greatest ever). You are in fact claiming to have more points than the highest FIDE rating ever recorded, Kasparov’s 2851 (some might argue Gary was the greatest ever - I’m one of them). Hmm. So either:

  1. You don’t understand what FIDE rating points are and have made an honest mistake, or
  2. You just invented a crazy number.

I assume you have just made an honest mistake, but of course this makes me think that you probably don’t really understand either how FIDE rating points work, how Elo systems work, or how the raid trophy system works. I’m left to wonder if your complaints have any merit.

Same to you - you have my best wishes.

Please forgive me offering one final piece of unsolicited advice: try to punctuate more. I don’t know if English is your first language or not, but the lack of punctuation in your text makes it painfully difficult make sense of. You surely have worthwhile points to make - they will be made much more effectively if you slow down by 5% and break up your text with appropriate punctuation to clarify your thoughts and guide the reader. At the moment you’re a bit muddled. :wink:

Hope to read more from you later.

Sorry it was a misprint as I’m always correcting typing errors, big fingers, little keypad.

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