Balance and Variety

E&P is now over 3 years old. It went through many changes in its lifetime (interactions, buffs, nerfs, new ideas…etc). The game is now mature enough to have a solid and balanced mechanics in terms of fights.

One main aspect that seems to be lacking in a big scale is buffs and revising old nerfs (over a year old).

We have many new heros now compared to 1 or 2 years ago and old “problem” heros aren’t a problem today. I really encourage SG to consider that and revert old nerfs like Ares, zeline, guinevere.

in the game’s history, we didn’t have many nerfs overall and buffs are more common (still not many) and with more heros introduced, old ones are pushed back as their numbers/specials aren’t as good.

Suggestions:

  1. revise old nerfs.
  2. buff old heros especially 5* as it is the least balanced rarity (4* and 3* as well but to a lesser extent)

Very successful buffs in history were Guardian kong, Aegir, atomos, domitia, hatter and probably few more i forgot

Good buffs were khan, leo, elena…

All buffs were a step an the right direction and made those heros useful and fun to have.

Some heros still need to be looked at (including some of the above) and small meaningful push will make a difference. Something as small as musashi self heal is 100% instead of 50% or aeron cleanse all, or misandra chaining chance to be 50% will make a difference and create new options to use and face!

This is a win win situation, buffs will make more verity on attack and defense and this makes the game more enjoyable in all levels. Rush wars is an example of how shifts and verity are fun for both attack and defense.

This topic is purely about buffing hero considering the game history as a whole and suggesting to have a focus on that from SG at least quarterly.
I am sure if there was an open poll on heros that need buffs, we’ll see clear common list.

Your thoughts and suggestions are welcome!

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My thoughts about whether heroes might be buffed

  1. Are they in a premium portal? If yes, then go to item 2

  2. Are they a chase hero? If yes then maybe they’d get buffed

Other than those reasons, SG are unlikely to have a motive to buff older heroes, especially ones now available through HA 10 (and therefore technically available for free)

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So tired of SG followers who keep finding good reasons for SG to not improve the game.
Could you please abstain from posting? What you are saying is off-topic…

Now with respect to the OP, I completely agree. In fact I even believe that buff/nerf should be more regular to find a good balance between hereos.
One of the most important thing is that S1 hereos should always be viable and without the costume bonus. I think the stats bonus should have been applied to all S1 hereos without requiring the costume which should only give the mana bonus…

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@Infinite all heros are available in special portals and buffing them will make their portals desirable (if we are considering the money part).
but i do believe SG seeks balance for balance, kong and atomos changes especially were the recent proof as they were brought up many times and most common suggestion buff for atomos was to make him average.

they just need to give it more focus as they are currently slow about it and pick small set of heros every time and ignore the ones in desperate need for buffs

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Most of the newer rare / special heroes already come pre-loaded with buffs, don’t they?

I am a full supporter of game balance, but unfortunately I think @Infinite is correct, they are not going to balance all heroes just for the sake of balance, especially not if it is going to discourage people from buying the newer better heroes.

I would very much like to believe that SG believes in game balance. But I also know they want to sell new heroes. And I don’t think the average person is going to spend a bunch of money trying to summon a particular hero unless it is blatantly stronger than the heroes they already have or can already get for free.

EDIT / ADDITIONAL:

I know how this game works. The biggest spenders are meant to have all the advantages. There is no way of trying to hide or sugarcoat that reality. It is what it is. And that is how they make their money.

But I think there is a way to at least somewhat balance this system. For starters, new heroes should only be at most 10% 5% stronger (10% is probably too high now that I think about it) than previous heroes. Any hero that is more than 6 months old should be available at a lower cost / higher summoning percentage. Heroes that are well over a year old should be somewhat regularly available for free via training camps or other easily accessible portals.

That way, the big spenders still have all the bestest heroes, but the rest of us at least have a chance to try to keep up.

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My two cents:

  • is X hero’s special skill relevant enough for his special speed?
  • are X hero’s base stats too low compared to his contemporary heroes?
  • are there still better heroes to chase after X buff?

If any of these answers is yes then buff :man_shrugging:
And why not, put him as a featured hero into a “balance changes” portal to not upset players who didn’t chase it at first.

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I have just lost my hope on this game after seeing the last part of this year. SG is more focused in the whales giving them new fresh stuff where to spend their money then balancing anything, and that includes old heroes, loot quality and events approaching.

I have gone F2P and im cutting off my playime little by little because i cant keep that rythm and im not particularly interested in the way the game is going.

But im glad to see people around here trying to get on contact with staff or willing to be heard. Its hard boys, theres something that screams louder than anything and its the predatory game system that nourish itself with people who may be hooked up and is willing to spend every single dollar in whatever SG puts in front of them. EG… the mystic titan offer… I got surprised by how many alliance mates purchased that. By my sight it was an absolutle overpriced offer.

So ,if you ask me… Nope… SG is not going to balance old stuff not making it more desirable. The gold mine is in new stuff and events

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i don’t get it, why everyone assumes buffs will stop spending? even if all old heros and s1 were buffed to be finley level, players will still spend on new heros. this will always be the case, buffing older and clearly weak hero will adds verity and fun first and also makes older portals more appealing. there is no downside!

btw, buffs doesn’t mean make heros s3 tier. buffs like what atomos, kong and Aegir got. they became much better and not OP in any way

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I’m just basing my thoughts on what I’ve seen SG do so far. I fully agree that many of the original heroes are in desperate need of buffs. But if you were to ask me honestly, “do you think SG will take time out of their busy days to buff heroes that people already have, in order to keep them somewhat competitive against the new heroes they are currently trying to sell?”

Nope.

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Does it really takes time to increase base stats by 10% or to add a line on the SS to make it more usefull ? :thinking:
Some S1 heros has just one line while S3 have at least 3 lines + a family inherent ability…

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Well, that’s the problem. Not only do the newest heroes have better base stats, but they also have faster mana and more lines on their special skills. So currently they are coming out as far more than 10% stronger.

S1 heroes? Slow mana and they do 1 thing.

New heroes? Fast mana and they do 3 things. And higher base stats on top of that?

But some people still want to argue that power creep doesn’t exist???

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@EmpiresPuzzles have already said:

:point_up_2:that "balance changes are an on-going process"
As it should be~

SG has many loyal customers who have been with them for a very long time!

I hope that SG considers this as they release new content.
And bear in mind that developing a roster takes months… years…

It would be a shame to render all the labor and grinding of roster development, for the bulk of their customers, as incompetent and obsolete. Such a disregard for balance will NOT encourage “long term” customers to carry-on in a game that has a very "long term" design…

They also said that they will "adjust accordingly", so there is room yet…
for good faith.

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Yeah. I am with The Gray Wolf on this. Reality check. Small Giants need to bring new heroes which are more powerful than their predecessors. Case in point, S3 heroes are better than S2 heroes, and the latter better than S1 heroes and for S1 heroes to be relevant again, their costumes are introduced, with costumed Kadilen at the forefront and the upcoming costumes for Marana and Leonidas. The latest additions to the challenge and seasonal event heroes like Finley (Pirates), Jabbawock (Wonderland), Snow White(Grimforest), Guardian Gazelle (Teltoc), Black Knight (Avalon), Killhare (Springvale), Krampus (Santa’s Challenge), and Vanda and Francine (Morlovia) are exceedingly better than their old legendary counterparts in the same family. And they are all beaten by the ninjas with Garnet, Onyx and Cobalt as the central charactees of the current meta.

Here’s the thing, to keep the game interesting, SG needs to produce more heroes that are powerful than the past ones. They may not be as powerful skill-wise, but their stats are far better than the previous heroes. This can be gleaned by checking the HOTMs. From the 1st generation up to the latest generation, it can be observed that the power rating of these heroes increase by 1. The 2nd generation has Element Link absent from the 1st generation of HOTMs. The 3rd gen has some resistance or immunity in it and the 4th gen has a passive ability not existing on the previous HOTMs.

On a business perspective, SG needs to develop strong unique heroes for players to acquire. If the old ones are buffed, there would be fewer players summoning because they will invest their hoarded ascension mats on the old heroes who are still competitive enough to battle out against the prized legendaries. I for one have almost 30 legendary heroes at 3/70, i.e. dupe Mitsuko, dupe Joon with costume, dupe Sartana, dupe Evelyn, 3rd Lianna with costume, dupe Ariel, Gregorion, dupe Domitia with costume, Aegir, Grimble, Kunchen, Elkanen, Kadilen, Vivica, Richard, Leonidas, Marjana and Horghall and if they are buffed, I won’t be pulling much for the new heroes except if I use free summoning using coins and tokens. I have 22 tonics, 27 rings, 20 darts, and 21 tabards and I hoarded them in the hopes of getting those prized ninjas, S3 and challenge and seasonal event heroes. SG knows this, that is why we glimpse S4 heroes as more powerful than S3 heroes. This is to keep players in pulling new heroes and hoping they’ll buy gems in their attempts to do so.

The problem is us general players can’t keep up with this phase. We thought that our once mighty heroes back then can still battle it out with the newer ones if we just put more emblems on them. The sad reality is in the negative. We can’t expect our Liannas, Joons, Sartanas, Magnis and Marjanas to be better overall in comparison to the likes of Friggs, Odins, Alfrikes or Onyxes, Lord Lokis or Cobalts, and Gefjons. But by buffing them old heroes will be counterproductive to SG since the players see less desire in pulling new heroes, thus lesser revenue for them. Your Guinevere can’t compete with BK in the tanking department, the latter has already very tanky stats to begin with. My Ares fares poorly in tanking when compared to BK or Garnet. My most powerful hero, Mitsuko+20, does not have a chance against Cobalt x3 mana when she is supposed to be a hard counter against powerful blues. And this is my current case. I have a lot of ascension materials but still hesitated to invest them on my existing heroes that I know too well won’t be able to compete with the new and powerful ones.

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Claiming that challenge is only derived from super creeps, otherwise the game gets boring…
seems to discount us, as players.

We can’t become creative and assemble a challenging defense? Something unique, from the confines of our roster.
If balance is maintained, there will be 100’s of heroes to choose from! And variety will thrive.
1,000’s of different defenses! Sounds like a 5* game to me.

Shiny new toys…
Super creeps…
Sounds expensive…

Sounds boring too! A constant shifting of big dollar defenses from one time period to the next. Which is pretty much where we are now… this isn’t an electrifying experience. It’s actually a reduction in variety! Rather than 100’s of heroes to choose from, there’s the same 3…
in every raid… in every war…

Even though, some whales don’t seem to mind. Most players don’t want to spend a fortune on a game… in order to be competitive.

How about instead of making the paywall more obvious, they maintain the quality of the game…?!

Thus making a fortune from millions of happy players. Who may not all spend a fortune. But will give some, here and there… in return for something equatable. The massive volume of such a player base, rendered from quality. Artwork. Balance.
Is where big profit would endure.

Rendering 95% of the population’s rosters obsolete does not sound like a smart financial decision…

While 5% of the whales form a paywall that causes everyone else to just…
move on

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As another effect by ascending good heroes players would run out of ascending materials, forcing them to wait for 6 months or so to ascend another set or to go for instant gratification by… buying them. Not bad uh? :stuck_out_tongue:

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The ultimate solution is pretty blatantly obvious to me.

New heroes always need to be better than older heroes. Nobody is going to spend money to try to summon something that isn’t better than what they already have.

But by the same token… you can’t limit all of the best heroes to only the top paying players.

I have already heard this argument hundreds of times: “if everyone got all the heroes, the game would become boring!”

That is the whole idea behind continuing to release more heroes all the time, yes?
And the new heroes are supposed to be better than the older heroes?

Okay! Then we are all in agreement.

But at a certain point, shouldn’t the really old heroes be considered “vanilla” and easily obtained? So that new players at least have a chance to try to “catch up”?

Atlantis heroes are no longer META. They are still good heroes, still useful to have, but now nearly impossible to obtain without spending?

And if one is going to spend… why bother spending for Atlantis, when you can buy even better heroes from Valhalla, ninja, etc., or just wait for Season Four?

Why not at least make Atlantis heroes and older HotM available for free and lower spenders?

How would that make the game “boring”? Seriously. There are well over 100 legendary heroes in the game.

What’s boring to me is me only being able to pull from the same small pool of vanilla heroes, and always having to fight against the same small pool of the top level META heroes. What could possibly be any more boring than that???

EASY SOLUTION: make old heroes easier to get.

The overall pool is already deep enough that I doubt you will end up seeing as many identical rosters going forward.

As it is, the top spenders already pick and choose the top heroes and basically fight against each other using the same top heroes. That sounds BORING AS @#$% to me.

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Most of us thinks in the contrary that powercreep will kill most of the base players, i.e. the majority of players which spend few bucks here and there and together brings much more money than the few wales. You are a foul if you thinks that the economic models is rentable thanks to the wales. This model is working thanks to micro-transactions concluded by millions of players not 1000/2000 wales that spend 600-1000 dollars a month.

So avoiding powercrep and satisfying the base players is the best corporate and financial move for SG. If they can’t understand that they will lose many players or at least spenders will become f2p.

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Spot on!! Guys, we got a bingo here!! Ting-ding-ding!! I envy SG’s business plan and model.

Agreed. Releasing a more powerful version of a previous hero. Cha Ching…

Take Myztero for example.
A unique hero! Fresh… flat… splat…

Anybody who wants a more powerful version of a hero that they already have doesn’t care about actually having fun.

Fresh new content. Unique skills. Actually balanced! So that it is added to the game. Becomes part of it.
Not… completely absorbs it. And wipes everything else out…

That sounds fun!

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Every time I suggest raising the summoning odds, people automatically assume that everyone will end up getting all the heroes if they do that.

LOL wut?

Yeah, no, I don’t think so… they’d basically have to increase the rate for pulling a 5* hero to at least 50% from every summoning portal, then maybe 4 or 5 years from now I would have them “all” (accounting for the fact that there is no guarantee that each summon will result in any specific hero; the more heroes you already have, the lower the likelihood that you will get one that you don’t already have)…

etc.

Then on top of that, it would take me decades to level them all…

But anyway…

I think what would make this game incredibly interesting is if we threw all of the older heroes into a giant pool, with relatively reasonable summoning rates for all players…

Imagine the wacky hero combinations that people would end up getting. You want to talk about keeping the game interesting? What could be more interesting than each player having a random assortment of S1, S2, S3, event, seasonal, and HotMs from years past, in all sorts of wacky combinations? Wouldn’t that be far more fun and interesting than everyone always using the exact same META lineups?

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