I read the other topics about auction house and the proposals were different. I can see the danger of exploiting that system there.
With the taxation for each transaction and the fact that it will be open to everyone (not only your alliance), the dangers are really minimal.
Heroes obtained through the TC20 will likely drop in price very soon and it will help newer players to be able to compete with the top ones, thus be more inclined to spend gems for the latest heroes released to stay in that league. You will still need to farm to level up them so it will be still a long process to go.
Even the speculation would be really risky with the taxation. Let’s say I buy Kageburado for 20000 gems. I will need to sell him at least for 25000 to get the same amount I spent…
whale goes to the auction to buy that Kage for 20,000 instead of spending potentially much more on rng
out of those 20,000, 16,000 goes to a player who sold Kage. SG really only gets a value of 4,000 gems sold
player who received 16,000 probably is not going to buy more gems for a while. Especially if he is c2p who just randomly got a really nice pull.
the 16,000 the c2p player now got are probably more than enough to get a full rainbow team of not so shiny 5* and 4*. Think of things like Obakan, Thorne, Leonidas. Because they are TC20 heroes, their market price would be minimal. Everyone getting a dupe would straight away sell it to get some gems back
with such easiness getting less desireable heroes, everyone would be running around with shiny rosters, so most people would be spending less and less, relying on selling the dupes to collect for better heroes.
And out of that, only 20% of value of the gems purchased goes back to SG, the rest just keeps recycling within the player base. Now you spend the gems on summon and poof - they are gone. In your proposal you spend 20,000 gems on a hero, another player get 16,000 gems, another player gets 12,800 gems etc. Don’t have time to calculate specifically but out of a single purchase of 20,000 gems, the total value of gems that went into player base is let’s say probably like 60,000.
And you say the dangers are minimal? To whom? Perhaps to a player who wants all the best heroes in the game as soon as possible. Definitely not to a company that makes it living out of selling these gems.
The premise of a “tax” or transaction fee on the trade does have some benefits, and it has been brought up before as a potential solution at least somewhat akin to your idea, I think.
This looks like it may be a similar idea:
There was also some interesting discussion in this thread:
There’s a lot of discussion on various approaches there, which are probably worth reading through. But I’ll try to pick out a few of the tax-related ones for direct relevance:
A couple follow-up posts on that brought up some points similar to what @Suicide_Bunny said:
My personal thought is that many things about this game’s premise of hero collection remind me of collectible card games I played when I was young. In the universe of physical card games, trading and buying/selling are natural inevitabilities, and in some ways part of the fun of buying card packs or visiting collectible shops.
That makes me wish there were some similar mechanism here.
But I suspect in the case of E&P, the cat is out of the bag, so to speak. It’s hard for me to imagine introducing any form of trading or sales, even with anti-abuse mechanisms in place, when so many people have spent so much on RNG summons already. Presumably a lot of those people would feel slighted that they could have potentially acquired heroes they were after less expensively through a trade/auction system.
And SG has seemed to express a desire, in general, to somewhat insulate players from each other.
While alliances and global chat have social components, they’re really the exception. SG has indicated a disinterest in direct trading of mats, hero trading/selling, and even private chat. The fact that the Alchemy Lab is being implemented as a solution to mat trading “with the computer” instead of between players is a good indication of this.
They could certainly change their minds, but I think any variation of exchange between players is unlikely.
I personally think there’s more possibility SG would consider something like the Alchemy Lab, but for heroes, where you could “trade” a hero you had for another, with what would be presumably some cost and an RNG component involved.
That idea, too, has been proposed/discussed a fair amount on the forum, though I have no idea how likely it is to be seriously considered.
I do not understand so much fear of losing gems … of the game remains and purchases in the game … for me the gems are only worth to get good heroes or necessary materials. and that you can only buy in the game. If I put a hero in the auction and they buy it for me … what am I going to do with the gems? spend them in a roll to see if I get one I want or hope to put in the auction a hero I want. please comment on my idea.https://forum.smallgiantgames.com/c/ideas-feature-requests
I am not in fear of anything. I just want to outline to you why it is not reasonable to expect the solution you described to be ever implemented in as friendly form as you describe.
Think of it this way - why would your idea make sense to you and why you want it implemented? Because you want a way that will get you the heroes you want by spending less gems.
What do SG as a business want? Do they want players satisfied with spending less gems? Hell no. They want players to spend more gems.
So why would SG ever make a decision that would allow people to spend less gems to be satisfied?
It is as reasonable as you going to your boss and asking him if he can change your salary so you will earn 20% of what you earn currently. And at the same time, you will deliver the same satisfactory results.
Would you ever do it? I don’t think so. So why would you expect SG do something basically the same? They are fine where they are. Once they see in their raw data that people no longer spend gems on summons, they will start thinking about their business model and how to reach to customers’ pockets again. But I think we are far from there yet. And once we’re there, there won’t be topics about auction houses for heroes but for ascension materials or talent coins.
Playing devil’s advocate, there’s an argument to be made that the randomness of drawing heroes discourages some players from spending gems/money, and those same players might happily spend more if they knew what they were getting.
That said, I agree that all evidence so far points to it being incredibly unlikely we’ll see any form of direct purchase of heroes implemented, barring some very significant changes to the game and SG’s mindset expressed so far.
Yup, I am quite certain though that the amount of potential revenue lost this way is a fraction of how much others spend more than what they would if there was such certainty.
And again, I am not a guy that praises the system for what it is, rng drives me insane on many occasions and part of me wants some regulations there. Everything is about loot boxes and rng recently and it has to collapse at some point, people can only spend so much on so many games. But for now, I just learnt to live with it, and the fact that you don’t need everything you want to still enjoy the game. Actually, I think having all you want would make the experience much worse and far less satisfying. It is chasing the rabbit that matters, huh.
I’m not personally entirely certain about that; if it were my business decision to make, I’d be doing some user behavior and conversion optimization studies and collecting data for analysis. Perhaps they’ve done that.
But all evidence is that the current system is working extremely well for SG on the revenue front, and I completely agree with you that they’re unlikely to risk upsetting that unless it stops working, or external factors like regulation necessitate it.
lol Fair point. “Some cost and an RNG component” definitely describes summoning again.
I was imagining something that gave you “credit” for the rarity of the hero(es) being traded in. Like if you traded in a 5* you’d have increased odds (or even a guarantee, if the transaction cost were high enough) to get a 5* as a replacement, but that which one you got would still be random.
Still probably unlikely to happen, though. It’s more complicated and potentially confusing, and there’s little obvious upside for SG offering it.
Mmmm I’m sorry but I can’t follow you. Let’s see how it would work with an hypothetical Kageburado.
If Kageburado gets sold for 25000 gems, the first owner gets 20000 and SG earns 5000 + 25000 bought by the buyer. The first owner will have 20000 gems to spend elsewhere, maybe some cheaper 5* or some pull. In either case part or all of it will still be wasted (aka earned by SG) in taxes or pulls. Where do you see a problem there?
The buyer will use 25000 gems straight instead of x pulls? Yes, true. But he will still have to buy them… maybe the actual system he would get it with a single pull or maybe he would spend more. I think that, with time, prices will allineate with the chances you have to get it. In any case he will not get any other hero, any HOTM or the likes… so it’s still something less he gets for a straight buy.
In any case I think that both the buyer and the seller will be happy because they will have what they wanted for a fair amount of gems instead of relying on luck. Many people (and big spenders) quit the game after a lot of unlucky pulls, I think in this case SG will win their presence and future purchases of gems.
On the other side, the lucky puller that sold the hero will have an head start to create a good starting roster, he will enjoy the game and probably will spend more in the future.
For example, I spend no more than 10-15€ per month. This is the amount of money I’m willing to pay for a videogame. If, after x months, I will feel frustrated I will quit without any remorse. I play for fun, what’s the point when the fun is gone?
With auction houses I will still spend the same amount of money but it’s more likely that I will enjoy the game for a longer time… I can save my gems for the wanted hero for a special team I have in mind for raids and challenges, having fun with it. If I’m already happy with what I have I would still spend that money in pulls to get something different. Maybe pulling a particular hero would suggest me a new strategy, leading me to spend more money in pulls or at the auction house.
Wow thank you zephyr1! You are obviously better than me in forum searches
I used to play MTG when I was younger and yes, trading was one of the funniest part of the game. I think it’s a good example of a system that worked and still works. There are people more eager to pray the Luck God and buy dozens of packs and boosters. Other prefer to spend their money straight for their wanted cards.
WOTC still makes a lot of money each time a new expansion comes out.
With a taxed auction house, SG will make money even for each transaction, something that doesn’t happen with a physical card game. So I really can’t see any danger in it.
That’s one of the games I played too, and I agree that trading/buying was both fun and practical.
One question to consider (and I’ve seen brought up in conversation before) is whether a leveled hero would “reset” for trade. Allowing purchasing of maxed heroes would be, I think, a problematic move too far in the direction of P2W.
This is true, but I think the argument for that is less SH making money, and more that friction in trades is necessary in this system. It become problematic for maintaining balance and preventing P2W if I can not only buy any hero I want, but also later resell it for the same price I bought it for originally.
Rumor has it that the new class emblem system has a similar option for reclaiming emblems from a hero with a tax of sorts in receiving fewer emblems back than were used for the upgrades on the hero. That’s necessary to prevent players from moving class emblems around with reckless abandon to suit the needs of a titan, War, event, or even raid. I think that’d be needed here too — though having the hero’s level reset on trade could address that too.
Lol thanks. I think I’ve gotten better at finding things over time. I also can almost always remember at least some component of things I’ve read before, usually enough to find them again.
I’m sure I’ll be referencing this thread at some point.
I don’t want to repeat my post where I list the problems, and how a single purchase of the example 25,000 gems suddenly benefits multiple players who can use these gems on further auctions would really be losing a lot of revenue for SG.
So just to simplify.
People want to get as many heroes as possible by spending as little as possible. Because having a full roster of heroes leave you in comfortable spot where you don’t have to spend anymore and just enjoy the game (or so you think).
SG want people to consistently spend, as much as possible. They always want to have that carrot that makes you want more and more and willing to purchase those gems and burn the credits. They don’t want the players to be in a comfortable spot where they can just stop spending and enjoy playing with the heroes they always wanted. Plus a bonus, I think they realize that the game is about collecting and levelling the heroes, so once that aspect is gone, there’s not much left. It doesn’t require that much of a strategy, skill etc. Strategy is using the mediocre, random roster you have available to get as good resulta as you can, but once you have access to everything… yea, you get bored and move on.
Now who pulls the strings - the greedy players or SG? Believe if they felt it’s a needed change they would introduce it a long time ago. One or two frustrated players who spent 80,000 gems, got nothing and write rage quit post on a forum is just one of a million players.
Ok, let me share with you my experience I have from another game I played. It was PC MOBA called Dota 2, created by Valve. I spent 8 years and 4000 hours in total just playing it, add couple thousands more for actively participating in its community.
Dota 2 model is a bit different from E&P. They allow players to have all the 120 heroes for free. They only want you to pay for cosmetic items that change the way heroes look or the look of their spells. Recently they only added minor fee for access to better reporting tools and some extra content (but really low, half the price of E&P VIP). One difference is that there are no good and bad heroes, they are all balanced and usable - some counters one another, some synergize, some are just generally useful but with a weakness they have to make up for.
Cosmetic items came mostly from loot boxes. 1 out of 8 was guaranteed with no dupe until you had them all. And extra chance for rare (1:10), very rare (1:25), extra rare 1:40) and cosmically rare 1:10000) item.
As you can imagine, people started going CRAZY about the cosmetics. Here’s (roughly) the lifecycle of what has happened:
first lootboxes introduced - drop was really bad (single items for single heroes; ie gloves or boots)
small chance to get random cosmetic item by just playing game
possibility to recycle items you don’t want - just pick 6 you don’t want and get chance to have a new random one
sales were not going very good, so more focus was placed on rare items (no guarantee, rng only)
more and more lootboxes, first lootboxes with thematic ‘sets’ of items for heroes rather than single items
Valve opened for community market, which is basically the ‘auction’ idea - people could trade the cosmetics with each other, paying real cash, with Valve grabbing small fee per transaction
market FLOODED with items, especially the non-rare ones and the ones people got for free
market price of the most common items dropped drastically to 0.01 EUR (!). People sold all the non-desired stuff, even if they were getting only a cent for that. Meanwhile, the rare items that all the people wanted maintained at very high price, few times higher than the lootbox itself (some even hundreds and thousands of EUR)
people started abusing the “recycle” option by just buying the 0.01 cosmetics in the market to just recycle them. They even created bots for that.
Valve wanted to address that by releasing ways to buy cosmetics directly at quite high price (8-10 EUR per set) so players do not rely on lootboxes that much. Nobody was buying them, people preferred rng. Especially with those shiny rare cosmetics out there.
Valve had to address the inflation of market value of less shiny cosmetics by almost completely removing chances to get them for free
Recycling was limited - you no longer get item for free, but a ‘talisman’ which changes to item only when you win 3 games, to stop the bot abuse.
People started making bots that were creating “fake” matches just to win them and unlock the talisman. Recycling was removed completely to address that.
Scammers started becoming an issue - peoples accounts were robbed just so the scammers could ‘gift’ all the items player had to their account to sell it then at higher price
Valve had to address the problem by introducing certain restrictions to trading the items, like you could not sell the item before adding some money to your account first, 30 days after creating the account or 7 days from obtaining an item. Items received for free in the game were also no longer tradable.
Market price of cosmetics which were not desired went up a bit, 0,05 - 0.5 EUR, with only the old ones, bad ones or the ones you could unlock just by playing remaining at 0.01
More and more lootboxes distributed. Not only sets of heroes, but now the sets started giving unique animations or taunts, the rare items given some extra flare or particles effects
Even though most of the people could buy full sets of regular cosmetics for less than 1 USD, everyone on the forums were crazy about how the company is greedy for that little chance for rare cosmetics and their market price being very high
Since market of cosmetics was quite saturated, Valve preassumbly started observing decrease of sale; people were still not happy about the chances to receive rare cosmetics
Immortal chests were released, which were only available for limited amount of time while giving unique spell effects to the heroes. Rare, very rare and extra rare were really cool. Beside them, each chest had 5-8 non-rare items.
Nobody cared about the regular items from the chest and people were overflowing with them. Everyone wanted to take a shot at the rare items. Just to remind, at this point all the rare items were available in the market - just very expensive, compared to the price of lootbox itself.
Everyone was really angry about the rng and the chances so Valve introduced ‘escalating odds’ - which means that with each opening of particular lootbox, chances for rare items are higher. Never guaranteed though.
People were exploding about “the escalating odds are a lie!!!”, “I opened XYZ chests and still no rare, IT’S A SCAM!!”
Valve started introducing further market restrictions, ie the immortal chests were not only available for limited time, but also any items from them were made non-tradable on the market for a year since purchase
Prestige items were introduced which were not only available for limited time, but came with a promise of never being tradable on the market after their release
Current state is: 75% cosmetic items are available in the community market for literally eurocents. Still nobody cares and people think they get them as punishment. People still doing a lot of rng. Valve does everything they can to make the rng transparent but people still give them s**t for being unfair. Everyone wants the supershiny rare items anyway. Everyone refuses to buy them from community market because they are much more expensive than the lootbox. People think they are more lucky than others so they keep trying lootboxes. Forums overflow with frustration from people who did not get what they wanted (and they only want rares) from rng. More and more restrictions are added to community market and more items released that are not allowed to the market. It definitely doesn’t look like Valve “loves” the idea of market anymore. Most of the cosmetics they worked hard to implement is considered “worthless” anyway. Plus the number of cosmetics released is like 10% of what it used to be couple years ago. Most of what’s released nowadays is supershiny, overloaded with particles… and prestige, rare or immortal. Nobody cares about normal stuff (ie “trash”) anymore.
And this is only cosmetics. Dota 2 has no pay to win.
I can only imagine the devastating effect such ‘market’ would cause on a pay to win game.
Whales will keep pulling anyway, not only trying to shoot at the one and only hero they want, but also not being punished since they can get some value back ("oh, I wanted Ares but I got dupe Zeline… but hey, I can sell her for 25,000 gems and just keep pulling). And if you are frustrated, just buy that hero directly.
No one cares about Cyprian, Hu Tao, Sumitomo or Agwe. But instead of feeding the dupes, whales and regular players would just put them on auction. Inflation would move their price to as low as 30-60 gems, 3 stars probably less than 10. In fact, people would probably start buying these in the market just to use them as feeders.
Everyone right after starting the game could just buy 500 gems and buy a full roster of ‘not the best but still ok’ 4* heroes, some even the 5*. 3 star heroes would be not used by anyone anymore. Not to mention any diversity of the heroes.
Regular f2p or c2p players would still cry that actually they did not want the easy access to those weak heroes. They wanted those supershiny Zelines and Guins. But they cost 25,000 gems. So I have to keep pulling. But the odds are so unfair!!! Spent 40,000 on pulling and still no Kage, WHAT THE HELL SG!!!
that, on the top of what I already mentioned earlier. 20% tax on gems is not really a tax but just decreased value of virtual currency in the gem that was already purchased by someone else. You pay for 10,000 gems, buy a hero, the next player gets 8,000 gems. They can get value of 8,000 gems worth of pulls/shop offers/WE refills, really whatever and never pay a penny. Worse thing, they can buy another hero worth 8,000 gems and never pay for it. Another player gets 6,000 of that purchase and do the same. So in short, they get premium content from SG but they don’t pay the premium. It looks that gems are flowing, but they are just “virtual” gems, noone beside the initial payer bought them. Empty money, than would only further decrease the ‘real’ value of gems and destroy the market/auction house with inflation.