Are we heading to Pay2Win? Plus, other concerns

It generally takes a lot for me to post a concern on the forums. But, here I am. And please remember, my opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of Seven Days.

I’m concerned. First and foremost, I’m concerned about the number of people in our community taking breaks from the game or quitting altogether. Many of these are top players… I remember posting a similar complaint about a year ago when Ascension items were way too difficult to obtain. You fixed that, and we moved past it.

I mean, I get it. You can’t make everyone happy. But, I think there comes a point in time where a voice that carries a bit more weight needs to speak up and say something.

This game is heading dangerously in the Pay2Win direction. When you hear from multiple people in the community that they are spending hundreds and hundreds of dollars on the HotM and Event Hero lottery, just to barely come up with one rare hero… is, at the least concerning.

Are we really going to start having to shell out hundreds of dollars to get the most coveted of heroes in Guinevere, Gravemaker (and other prior HotM’s) in order to compete at the top? Because, that’s what it’s starting to feel like.

I understand that there is a business model. I understand that summoning hero is essentially gambling. But, it didn’t used to be like this, in my opinion. And I think this same mistake was made when Small Giant made ascension items ridiculously hard to find.

Also, some other questions. What is going on with Wu-Kong? Can we get a transparent answer about the changes that have been made to him? Am I imagining them? Are others imagining them? Sure, we could speculate all day about it, but wouldn’t it be easier to offer a clear explanation as to why one of the best heroes in the game appears to have taken on some sort of change?

Let’s talk beta.

Recently, there has been an abrupt shift in beta policy, in which people were scrambling to undo what used to be a loose policy on talking about beta content. What is the policy exactly? Why is there no Non-Disclosure Agreement in writing that clearly states what we can and can’t share in beta? Why does the sudden change of heart about beta details and its sharing, end with what one can be interpreted as a veiled threat via forum post.

I’m a concerned player. I’m also the leader of the largest community in the game. I’d like to think my voice carries some weight. And I hope the same effort I took to write a civil post about reasonable concerns, won’t be taken lightly.

Founder of Seven Days


I would like to say that it can be nice to explain all changes… not only wu kong :slight_smile:


I think SG is not realising what they are doing. P2W is one thing but they are going to far these who were paying a lot start to shift away. SG has to understand current state is not what will be in the future. People will not spend thousands and thousands. New season is something what can do huge break point. All these new heroes are way to strong. Their idea most likely is that we will spend like crazy because old heroes are not good enough. I think they will actually make opposite effect. Why I have to keep spend money if year later all these heroes will be almost garbage!?


I agree, There seems to have been made changes to the game without informing us about it. I have really enjoyed the game myself and I too have spent some cash on it. Some transparency would be nice, I don’t want the time and money spent on this to be for naught. So please devs give us clear information about the changes you do to the game. It’s not very fun to feel a little cheated without really knowing what’s going on.


@Avicious that was a wonderful post. But I can’t help but feel that you were holding back. I mean really holding back.

Just let it out brother.


Sorry but I couldn’t resist :grimacing:



I think we are way past the “heading in p2w direction”, we currently live in a house in the middle of “Pay2Windia” on the shores of “Lake HeroHysteria”.

Other than that, spot on brother!


Haha… I’m not actually holding back. I’ve expressed my major concerns and I hope they’re heard. I still love Empires & Puzzles and I like the Staff, overall. I’m concerned. They are humans just like me. One person is likely not making all the decisions. I’m sure it’s a team effort, just like any other company. But, I do think there comes a point where concerns need to be addressed, in the best interest of the game and the community.

I’ve personally spoken to some Small Giant staff and they are very decent people. And I hope they find my post respectful. Thanks for the comment :slight_smile:


Hey Avi,
thank you for the post.

I share your concerns. Many are slowing down, taking a break or quitting.
The reasons are mostly the same why many others, including myself, are frustrated.

The gap between those with Special heroes and those without is getting bigger each month.
There should be more normal heroes on a regular basis too and the odds should be better, or maybe increasing slightly with every pull without a 5*.
Or other mechanics to increase the happyness of the community. Many other games got good examples.

Like in Diablo3 (no mobile game, i know) you can trade stuff (could be asc items and/or heroes) but with the restriction of only to those that were in the game when it dropped (like only in alliance when you get it) and for only 4h (could be 24 or 48h here)

The next big thing is imo the Board RNG, especially in aw it is sometimes hillarious.
But i guess that‘s hard to fix.

About the bussiness model… sure but if it gets p2w then most casual buyers, like myself, stop buying as it does not help at all to buy anything.

Hope SG hears us



Yes it’s something that’s bothered me to.
I’ve had alliance members leave due to this and others only stay due to people they know in the alliance, I know this won’t last and they will leave to.
But this is only small fry compared to all voices on this forum, I agree with avi…there needs to be balance between making money and fairness and value.
I know it’s probably hard sometimes to keep a balance look at alot of other mobile games p2w all the way.
I love this game, but I’m not sure how long it will last if I’m the one doing all the giving and sg are doing all the taking.


Thank you for taking the time to write a thoughtful, meaningful post. At some point, if you aren’t speaking out against something you feel is wrong, I think you’re effectively complicit :stuck_out_tongue:

Personally, I think the “business model” is borderline criminal. I think the designers are actively, purposefully preying upon human nature in order to maximize profit, well being of the game universe, customer ‘happiness’ or customer finances be damned :stuck_out_tongue:

At the end of the day, they’re a business. And they’re people. They’re not breaking any laws, (though they’re skirting some Apple policies for sure by not giving the odds for anything. I think because they adjust the odds over time, so that’s why they won’t display them. But who knows) and they’re making money legally. So, what’s the problem? You guys may notice players leaving, but if they’re still printing money I doubt they listen or make any meaningful changes.

So I think the charge to us as players is to stop giving them our money if we don’t get what we want… stop paying a $5/month tax to play the game in VIP. Stop forking over $xxx for a chance at a 5* event hero. Just stop spending.

Then you’ll see SG come here and maybe care.

But, to be honest, I think their “business model” is too strong. The game IS good. There’s a wide audience. And they’ve got down to a science how to extract money from a wide range of people.

So, what I’m saying is: because you are who you are, they’ll acknowledge you. They’ll make some concession as a token to appease you. But in 6 months you’ll be able to check back here and realize that nothing is different, they have their money and that’s what matters.

That’s my flawed human opinion anyway.

Best of luck :slight_smile:


Thanks @Avicious for this wonderful speech. I am as concerned as you are. I think I play this game long enough to see the path chosen by SG.
I have seen this before. There is a game (Legend of Solgard), I played really often because it was really fun. A bit like E&P with map, special events, chests, alliances and so on. Then they got greedy and nerved the game so much that I left. It was just P2W. Nothing else. But nevertheless I regulary read the comments about the game on Playstore to check if it is worth to go back. But it is not. They made it even more P2W (which I never expected it could be) and I read a commend from Top3 alliance leader I was also in once. The complete alliance left the game!..and so many other veteran player did. Currently I see quite many adds for this game in nearly all games I have. It seems they desperately looking for new players instead to read the comments in Playstore and change their mind.
i love this game and I love my alliance and I know I have a chance when I stay patient.
That’s why I stay I know that for SG I never was an important player as I did not spend money but many others did and they also share our feeling.
I also know that they have to make money to offer us this wonderful game. I personally do not spend money just for chances and I am happy that others do so that even I can play this game.
So SG please open your mind and see what brilliant game you developed and what a wonderful community joined just because of YOUR game! Be proud of it! Please do not throw this away just to make some more bugs. PLEASE!! :disappointed_relieved:

EDIT: By this way many thanks to all players spend money on this game…even when kicking my butt in raids as lower level as I am :kissing_heart:


@Petri @devs please read this thread and consider your options. There are many threads where people already are complaining about the direction you’re heading.

Please stop this before the game explodes and i’m left alone.

Not communicating or communicating and communicating nothing would be very bad i think :smiley:
Please tell us if it’s really going to be p2w, then i (every month max 100 euro’s) will have to quit. I like to invest in games that i like, but not to buy my way up.


Been playing this game for over a year. Level 46, generally f2w, but spend $20 to $30 a month. I haven’t seen an epic hero token outside of challenge event in months. My last elemental chest had 3 regular tokens. I haven’t gotten a non-farmable in at least 2 weeks. And Wu misses everything but the side of the barn. Honestly, I don’t really know what to say. Rock bottom was a monster chest the other day that had ham, iron, and 1 gem.


Great to see a thread like this from such an important voice of the community. Balanced and because of that all the more devastating with the lack of high emotions.

As a C2P player of the game (my only outlay is the $5 a month) I have been quite lucky with TC20 and pulls on the whole though still lack wu kong (that d*mn dirty app still eludes me). I’ve even had a few ascension mats drop lately.

But the complete disappearance of any gold tokens has led to a stark dip in enjoyment. The occasional bone thrown the players way, the hope of something nice was always a welcome surprise during the grind. I can’t imagine it was game breaking or revenue ruining for players to have a sniff at a HOTM.

It really feels like the accountants are driving for short term gains but it’s coming at the expense of the long term. Maybe in the lifecycle of the game this is part of the plan but if not and the hope is season 2 will keep the money rolling in I urge the showrunners to reconsider. It would be a foolish road to continue on. You are at a pivotal moment, you know there will be a honeymoon period with season 2 but rest assured, that will expire and if the current state is the new norm, we will never see a season 3.


These are wonderful, tactful, and honest responses. Keep it up!


What ive seen in the past in other games is as the time goes by, the general population moves on to other games ( especially the ftp players who feels that they reached a point where it takes way to much time to evolve further, they cap) and the ptw feels like its getting way too expensive. That beeing said, overtime they loose ppl, its a circle of life type deal. Devs, naturally, works on other and future projects. As the game becomes less and less popular and more ppl quitting for all the reasons stated on posts above, or just gets bored of it, they slowly start to milk the game and this is when its start to get out of hand and over expensive. Season 2 might be a way to milk the most out of the big cashers. I hope its not the case, its a very good game. SG got something special here and i hope they will listen to their pool of players. Too bad i didint discover this game earlier.


Thank you for your post, really.

As you said, your words have indeed another weight, and not only because you are the leader of the best guild in the house, but more then anything because you are not a person that tend to complain, unlike me, or unlike other players as well.

And your way of politely expressing your concern is probably the best way to understand how your way of thinking is surely not something throw on a heat of the moment.

It quite ■■■■ me off thinking that a single person could make them change their mind.

But a little less after this.

P.s. no need to say that i totally agree on everything, Wu kong concern too.


Great thread, I really hope the devs will respond to it.

I’ve been playing this game for months now, I’ve spent x thousands euros on it in my early playtime -which was a terrible idea and i’m still trying to recover from it-, despite this I still enjoy this game & the grinding around it. I’m an mmorpg player so grinding isnt it an issue for me, nonetheless I’m forced to agree that this grind is getting more & more pointless through the months, being C2P now (only the VIP pass cuz the 2nd worker is just so valuable it’s incredible we have to pay for it… ho wait it isnt).

The whole rng in this game feels like it is stacked against you. Stacking x colors in raids/titan/aw? Enjoy the starting board without it! Need one specific mats (for me it is fine gloves)? There! Enjoy all the others, hf stacking! Wanna do x30pulls for this event? There, enjoy classic heroes / 4/5times the same heroes from the event!

But imo, these arent the main issue. The main issue is the lack of communication from the devs. It would be nice to have, at least, approximate values on certain odds. It would be nice that they tell us why they do a certain change… like LoL can do, or guild wars 2 (mmorpg), or so many others… Communication would be nice.


Well written post with concerns I wholeheartedly share. I have played this game for some 13 months or so, but are now asking myself whether the game really gives me more enjoyment than frustration.