Alliance Wars Poll - The Revenge Concept (Take 2)

I think the revenge bar is pretty cool.
The reasons below have probably been stated already, but I like to voice my opinion haha

1: It brings unique dynamic to PVP other than the classic raiding. You have to think and match a bit differently. Which is something new. So I like it. And lesser used heros get to see the light of day! Cant even remember when I thought about unleveled Boomer, Obakan and Cyprian use cases! Which is something I also like!

2: Eventually (quite quickly actually) people can put together a raid team that is able to hands down beat any defender with similar hero quality and power level. So assuming the match making gets sorted AW without the revenge bar would mean that both alliances would wipe eachother out directly (has already happened to some)

3: It ā€œforcesā€ people to develop more heros. Making them more versatile and adaptable players. Both on titans and events.

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I think 2 of your 3 points arenā€™t necessarily a result of the revenge bar (points 1 and 3). This is more a result of only being able to use your heroes onceā€¦ and I like that.

Your point #2 is well madeā€¦ good versatility in your team and some tactical experience in the game means you should be able to make a good run of most attacks of similarly powered teams. I donā€™t feel you need the revenge bar to combat this, however. I think you can boost defence other ways without falsely abbreviating the battle (which the revenge bar does). E.g. The defence teams could gain some health back between encounters. They could have boosted defence and/or attack. Or they could maybe swap out for a ā€˜reserveā€™ every so often.

I actually like the concept of a defence team being tough enough that requires you to have to make it a team effort to defeat itā€¦ itā€™s just that I see the revenge bar as being a bit of a blunt instrument to achieve this.

So far the results are strongly pointing to a preference to it, but canā€™t help thinking that people are supporting the concept of a tougher defence rather than the revenge bar itself. Sure itā€™s something ā€˜differentā€™ to regular raids, but to me having something ā€˜differentā€™ at the cost to some of my fun (shortening the battle) isnā€™t a good trade-off. The novelty will fade quickly, and what you are left with is simply abbreviated battles.

Anyhooā€¦ not about to get frothy at the mouth about it. Gave it thought and decided I prefer not to have it, but still like AW and the approach to it so far, so all good. :slight_smile:

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I absolutely support the idea of a tougher defence team and my blunt idea to achieve this would be to increase the defense of the defending team.
In addition to this I would make a change to how (I understood) healing works though. As of now, a lot of people feel left out because not even their second team does any notable damage.

  1. Get rid of the Revenge bar
  2. Defending team gets a defence bonus of +xx%
  3. A heroā€™s health can not increase the value the hero started the battle with

A side note to 2) this includes that Alberich can not resurrect heroes that are dead at the beginning of the battle.

The defense bonus could be scaled with the power of the attacking team to not have the top alliances with deep benches just roll over the opponents.

Why am I suggesting 2)?
When starting to think about healers during AW I thought about whether a hero can have more health after a battle than before, but apparently this is not the case but it is limited to the health in the beginning of the battle.
Nevertheless, when it comes to the later attacks in the middle class alliances you end up doing no effective damage at all.
With a 2/3* hero, thatā€™s the reality for A LOT of players after letā€™s say the third flag, all you are doing is filling the defenders mana. You are barely scratching the defense that happily absorbs your tiles and heals up to 100% even though a hero maybe started with 50% only.

By limiting the health to the starting value, the small amount of damage you will do will actually matter and count.
Regarding Alberich: that change is necessary with this approach, but honestly: having an unaccessible hero with the ability to revive previously killed heroes is broken anyways in my opinion.

You can always just ghost tiles, or hit the enemies that are not healers. If there is a healer tanks you should save some of your better teams to the second half so you can deal with them. Healers are a viable tactis in AW, but they can be dealt with, even with low lever/* teams.
Now I not strictly agains your point 2 (I am againts 0 and 1). Just pointing out that this is also a strategy question.

ghosting tiles does fill the revenge bar rather quickly

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It doesnt fill it any faster?

The most dominant reason people donā€™t like the Revenge Concept, is probably that they donā€™t see it actually working to their benefit on their defences.

Someone referenced the Brexit vote. The parallels are big here.

I voted to keep it as it is. Canā€™t offer suggestions for change because they involve balancing. And fair proper balancing is done based on server data, not on individual player experience. The Revenge bar is an awesome leveller, and provides a welcome change from raid strategies. You honestly canā€™t ask for more. The devs did something brilliant here.

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No it doesnā€™t 20 characters

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I see your point, but Iā€™d say ā€˜brilliantā€™ is over-egging it. They made the necessary step of beefing up the defence so they donā€™t all get wiped, which is what would happen if facing competent attack if not enhanced in some way. I believe that to be entirely necessary.

But I think using the revenge bar to do this was essentially a bit lazyā€¦ precisely because itā€™s a bit easier to test, tweak and balance. To me the cost is some interest in the game.

Sure it works for me in defenceā€¦ but then again so would any other form of beefing up the defence, so I donā€™t really take that as an argument.
On this logic I should be praising the defence barā€¦ it makes it dirt easy for me to choose an extremely effective defence with a more limited bench than many of the stronger playersā€¦ I simply pile on my healers. If I had Kiril Iā€™d just use him too, and let the arrows do all the damage. But actually (although this benefits me on defence) I think the fact that the revenge bar encourages this rather limited tactical choice in defence is not to the benefit of the game.

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I canā€™t say I love the AW concept, I donā€™t really know for which players it has been designed. But Itā€™s main issue is the same as other quests. (titan, monthly events, raidā€¦). Rewards are so poor that I donā€™t see interest in participating. After playing 10 months, I have fully ascended 13 heroes (12 4* and Natalia at 79/4). It takes too much time to ascend a hero and ascending items are so unusual that I donā€™t know when Marjana, Vivica and Obakan will be ready. Iā€™m not sure I will be able to wait 6 more months to have them ready.

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A bit off-topicā€¦ there are other threads for general AW feedback. This one really is focussed on the Revenge Bar aspect.

For all that consider that everyone is in the same boat in terms of total team depth to support all 6 attacks. I actually quite like that aspect. The Beginner Events werenā€™t sufficient motivation for me to concentrate on building a stable of 3* heroes, but Alliance Wars areā€¦ Iā€™m quite enjoying having something to do with my fodder while some of my mains are stuck waiting for ascension items.

I thought I would dislike it because itā€™s based on the raid mechanic (for which Iā€™m not the biggest fan), but the irony is that I now criticise the Revenge bar because it actually SHORTENS the combat experience just as it starts to become interesting.

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As I am level 45, I can say I like the need of 30 heroes to support 6 attacks. It makes my alliance wins its two first wars and I guess we will win tomorrowā€™s war for same reason. Other alliance has an average level of 29 when we should be 35. Thatā€™s directly implies we have more heroes.

The revenge bar concept is not so bad at beginning but when only one/two defender remains you just canā€™t win with 3* heroes because they die so fast they become useless. Iā€™m still undecided about it. For AW purpose Iā€™am ascending now 3 more boril and 2 boldtusk since I guess they are the key to survive longer.

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I think AW SHOULD be a different experience than raiding in several ways because otherwise itā€™s justā€¦well, a bigger raid, and not much of a new activity. Therefore, Iā€™d like to see the revenge attack stay

In the future, Iā€™d also like to see more elements that are unique to AW skirmishes. Perhaps we could use other ā€œweapons of warā€ besides the revenge arrows.

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I love simple solutions that work and I do think thereā€™s brilliance in them.

A defending team of all healers wonā€™t cut it, I wager. Focus fire kills them off one by one and the attacking teamā€™s healers prolong the fight enough to deal with the revenge bar, which will be easier without getting hammered by defending specials.

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I agree. Having arroes cause so much damage takes away from the strategy of fighting. Ghosting tiles is basically eliminated as it activates the Revenge arrows sooner. The damage should be lowered to 10% of your remaining health and shouldnt speed up at all.

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Ghosting does not speed up the arrows.

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I would like to be able to click on and view the battles as they are happening, or at least have an area we can send the battle to so that it can defeat viewed by your alliance. For that matter titan strikes would be fun to share.

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Iā€™d agree on this for regular raid - fielding a defence too heavy in healers is ultimately a losing strategy for just the reason you state. (In fact in regular raid I deliberately target their healer if itā€™s central as much as I can in the opening stages, as it then just wastes its heals on already full team matesā€¦ until I have built the specials to take it out. But this takes TIME).

In AW itā€™s certainly proving effective for me. I field 3 healers (Rigard, Melandor and Boldtusk) with Boril in the middle and Li Xiu just to ā– ā– ā– ā– ā– ā–  their mana regen. It took them 4 separate attacks to take down my team. That to me is an effective defence. By the same token I took down 2 attack-heavy defence teams in 2 of my attacks. Denying those first 3 attackers a full kill on my team would seriously dent their points.

This would be an absolute no hope defence in regular raids, but certainly seems to do the job in AW for 2 consecutive wars now.

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Posted this somewhere a week or two ago, but Iā€™ll reiterate here since this thread is specific. The arrow revenge is a great tool to foster alliance cooperation, itā€™s just too much. The damage should be 25 to 30% of your remaining HP, not 25% of your total. This is a very important distinction because then the arrows cannot actually finish you off. The other team should have to kill you, NOT the arrows. They just helpā€¦

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Wowā€¦ the ā€˜keep but tweak weakerā€™ brigade is making a late come-backā€¦
ā€˜Keep as isā€™ had a good 4% lead at one point, now eroded back down to just 1%
:slight_smile:

Would love to know the mindset of making it stronger.

Richard: Ok guys, check your kit - we are approaching the foe.
Rigard: (Cracks knuckles) Count on me guysā€¦ Iā€™ll keep you going.
Grimm: The whites of their eyes, guysā€¦ the whites of their eyes
Wu Kong: Oook ook ook ook.
Richard: CHAAAAAARRRā€¦

(The dust settles)

Archer1: Well that was easy wasnā€™t it?
Archer2: Yehā€¦ just like last time. Tea, anyone?

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