1.12 - Cup Dropping Punish : Good or Bad?

Avid cup dropper here -

2400 team power, I realized it saved me a lot of time to drop to 450 cups instead of running through tons of re-rolls to find good matchups at 900 cups where I probably belong.

So, that’s what I’ve been doing.

Generally, pre patch i would see about 12-30k ham per roll. Outliers on both sides, up to 70k food last week.

Now, I just ran through 80 re-rolls, and the single highest ham number was 8000. There was one 7000, and the rest were 4000 or less.

NOW.

This does not deter me from cup dropping. It just means I won’t be expecting to get ham from raids. I’ll still stay in silver, at least for the time being, because it’ll still be a lot easier (presumably) to get a fair match up. Maybe over time things will adjust, but I think what’ll happen is people will raid less overall.

SG didn’t address the core problem, that people aren’t incentivized to gain trophies. Tiered rewards aren’t meaningful, and as a result, the best answer for many will be to not raid.

This answer they instituted is doubly stupid because it actually ENCOURAGES top players to lower their trophy count, so when they’re attacked they lose less.

(OTOH I guess the players who really enjoy raiding are incentivized to gain trophies, so they can in theory get more ham… but then they lose more ham. So… I dunno. )

Just seems like a really questionable way to address the problem :stuck_out_tongue: like. They really overthought it.

What would be the problem with making meaningful rewards at each tier …?

6 Likes

I disagree man. I need ham. This is an incentive to raise my trophies as high as I can. It is also an incentive to strengthen my defense team first and my attack team second. I believe these are the intended effects and I believe that for many they will work as intended.

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OH. Also at Lower ranks the ham gains are substantially lower, they should probably adjust the re-roll costs accordingly.

Let’s say,

SH level 1-10: reduce ham cost by 50-75%

SH 11+: keep ham costs as is

2 Likes

I guess I’m curious to see what the ham gains are around 1000 trophies.

At 500-750 they’re really poor. There’s no value for me to try to gain trophies right now. I’m not strong enough to get to 1500 trophies yet.

So for now, it’s farming bronze or silver chests. No more ham gains.

I can live with that. But there’s no incentive for me to rise up right now. So I do feel they missed the mark here, at least for me.

If this serves some end game players, that’s important. It’ll help to level out the field. But it seems there’s disagreement on how players are going to play this.

I don’t think that feeling would exist if platinum had a strong chance for 4* AM… if Gold Chest ham rewards were 10x silver… and platinum was 10x gold… people would scratch and claw to get into the next tier… yes?

3 Likes

Mmmm okay let me get this …

I go do a sport … any sport and win. Hard work makes me win again and before I know it I am in the lane next to Usain Bolt … hang on!!! I am not as fast as him, see the guy with the gun and false start on purpose.

I keep doing this until I end up in the lane next to Usain’s son. Yeah take that little one … I am where I belong now.

The mere fact that you are facing more difficult oponents are because you were just that good in winning.

I rather hit a player 300+ higher than me, cause I like the challenge and how to setup my team to try and beat them.

But hey thats just me …

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It’s not clear to me that the increase/decrease in ham/iron is based on tier. Is that right?

All I’m saying is I really want to maximize ham production. So I want to sustain as high a cup level as I can.

I don’t agree that ascension items are what are needed to balance this out. Ascension items have to be rare. The big picture game design requires a measured progression from start to finish. If they allow us to accelerate that progression, they will fall into one of 2 traps:

  1. People will complete the game too quickly (lost revenue)
  2. They will need to continually increase the top levels of the game which ultimately leads to inflation, Pay to win, and huge disparities between haves and have nots. These inevitably lead to deterioration of RPGs and we will move on.

The only issue here is that people are used to increasing ham production by intentionally losing. I see this as a flaw. I do agree that the loss of this source of ham will be frustrating and adding new ways to increase it (by winning intentionally?) would be a good way to offset.

I suppose there’s another potential issue that people like the idea they can win all the time when they are on and dont care if they lose all the time when they are offline. Honestly I’m OK with losing some raids. In fact, it makes winning them way more fun. So I don’t care much for this argument although I recognize others may.

Haha well.

What happens when you best usain bolt?

You get endorsement deals. You get money. You get fame. You have a sense of pride and accomplishment.

When you best his son, nothing.

What happens when I beat a player 300 below me for 60,000 ham? Nothing. I get 60,000 ham. And I took like, 25 seconds of my (personally valuable) real life time.

What happens when I beat a player 300 above me for 60,000 ham? The same thing as above. Except it probably took 2 minutes. And sometimes I lose, meaning it is now gonna take 4 minutes.

There isn’t anything actually pushing us to want to achieve more, until you’re maybe near top 100 and can set that as a goal.

And that’s the underlying problem… saying that players should just altruistically seek out the most challenging matchups… I’m gonna just say that’s questionable.

2 Likes

Yes this is exactly the argument. If you feel that you should make a good amount by fighting people lower than you, then you are right, this is a bad change.

If you feel that fighting harder opponents should give greater rewards, this is a good change.

I mean, they are trophies right? Shouldn’t they represent something we want to win? The incentive is you get more ham, more rewards, for fighting stronger people. Doesn’t that seem right?

I recognize we are used to the incentive going in the wrong direction. But that was a flawed model. They are trying to fix it.

There has been a constant chorus of ‘cups mean nothing’ for a year. Tiers helped. This helps more. Maybe this will prove to be enough. Maybe they will need to further tweak the rewards. We will see. But in the end, making winning cups the goal and losing cups a penalty makes a lot more sense than the other way around, dont you agree?

3 Likes

Of course I think fighting more challenging players should mean better rewards.

I’m not at all unhappy with the intention of the change, I just don’t agree that it’s the right change to make.

Because while it CAN reward gaining trophies, it also still supports trophy dropping - in a different way.

I keep mentioning tier rewards, because I think that saying “achieving X trophies” = REWARD… THIS is how you make people want to rise up. AM were an example. There are other possibilities…

And at the end of the day, no solution is perfect. But there are some clear limitations here…

And I think to really evaluate for me, i would have to see exactly what formula they’re using. Maybe the ham gains jump dramatically between 750-1500… and if I really fought up there the gains would be amazing. But I’m expecting they don’t spike until closer to 2000-2500.

But without that formula and the ability to quickly level up, it’s just gonna be something that takes a while to feel out I guess.

I guess it’ll hit the mark for some players, but leave a lot of people saying ‘it isn’t worth the hassle’

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Fair enough. I agree that we just don’t know what the effects will be. Unfortunately the only obvious ones are that people are seeing significantly lowered ham/iron amounts in their raid rolls which will lead to a lot of dissatisfaction regardless of the reason. :frowning:

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Basically, we are paying, and paying a lot to kill titans and get crap, fill chests and gt crap, grind boring regions to get crap. And at each new update we are told where , when and how to play to get the crap. Plenty of sticks and no carrot

8 Likes

New reasons to drop cups:

  • lower cups = less ham lost in raids
  • too many rerolls = negative ham gains

Upgrading tower to 20, dropping cups to gold, strong team over night, team of 1* through the day = win

5 Likes

This is so true. Also, lots of people are complaining or being in favor and they dont know how much ham/iron they have cut from us. I am at 2200 cup range and its 10-30k ham per raid and you know why you could raid someone to get 50k+ ham? Because people dont play that much in lower levels.

I am feeling cheated, I didnt use to cup drop anymore but my ham income will get down heavily with this change. Its also been weeks opening platinum chest and not getting a single ascension item, and I always used to spend gems to skip, so i could open 2 raid chest per day. I wont do it again, there is no point anymore because everything is been nerfed, even elemental chest.

3 Likes

I didnt think about this and i will implement, thank you and I think everybody should do the same, I was actually upgrading my tower, its level 14 right now.

I very much dislike the current nerf on watchtower raids. It seems to completely negate the purpose of the watchtower, a feature which many of us have enjoyed and invested resources in and which all of us have grown accustomed to.

A much better way to discourage cup dropping would be to incentivize higher trophy counts. I’ve suggested it before, but a fun way to do that might be to offer daily or weekly rewards based on your place in the standings. Every Sunday night, say, those in the top 100 would get some reward, those in the top 1% would get another, those in the top 5% another, and so on with the top 10%, top 15, 30, and 50 all getting something as well.

If you wanted to avoid an all-out rush on Sunday, you could make the rewards daily, or could make them based on average trophy rank for the week.

As things stand now though, with this recent nerf, I think you’re going to have a lot of disappointed players. And you’re still going to have plenty of cup droppers, I’d imagine, as most folks value the monster chest loot a lot more than the tiny bit of ham currently available through watchtower raids.

4 Likes

Many many people in my alliance including myself weren’t raided much before leveling up their watch tower past 7. I have been playing for 3 months my highest trophies was 2300 and I was only raided 2 times until 2 weeks ago when I leveled up my watch tower to 8. Now I get raided nonstop.
My trophies can stay the same or go down and I will still get raided a lot.

Many people reported to get raided more often lately. There was a change in the raiding system. It was just a coincidence that you upgraded your watchtower at the same time.

GAnd before that the entire 3months only 2 raids and I’m a level 36? That’s a highly unlikely coincidence. Upping your watch tower is more food and Iron available to be raided it makes perfect sense upping more food =more Raids

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That pretty much ruins raids for the game with this nerf. Don’t bother to reroll for a lot of food if a guy is 400 power level ahead of you because you barely get that back now. I don’t know why the dev team thought this was an issue this just went from one of the best features in the game to one of the worst.

4 Likes

Honestly, I’m not seeing the big issue here. I’ve never found raiding to be that significant of a ham/iron source compared to the farms/mines, so if those winnings are nerfed now I didn’t really notice. What I did notice, though, is that my watchtower actually had something in it when I got home from work this evening (as opposed to being mostly cleaned out by cup droppers like usual), so I got to collect an extra 100K ham today from my watchtower.

Seems like a win to me!

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