1.12 - Cup Dropping Punish : Good or Bad?

Blame the devs for creating the problem themselves. Your raid in diamond level only to receive absolutely nothing for loot so it drives players to drop lower to actually receive something. If you want to change anything then it’s the devs setup of the raiding system these players are just playing the game within the rules!

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I don’t think it is punishing the players that cup drop. I think that it punishes new players more than the ones that cup drop.

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The thing is that I will be cup dropping anyway to be able to fill up the chest easly. What is the point for me to keep trophy lvl close to my max and then struggle with every fight, when I am not getting enough iron/food for that anyway and to fill up the chest I have got to win 8 fights. With trophy at my max, it’s impossible, so my trophy will be kept lower anyway.

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Okay just some screens from my lvl. 5 WT.

Raiding or do a revenge on me, was not worth to use a flag, with the update become completely worthless for my opponent in my eyes.

And yeah, when i was searching for players with 90/50k towers, most of them was not online for 1 - 3 or more days. I think when someone have the time, to left his WT that many days unwatched, they got not that many butthurt :wink:
Just one good thing, with the new raiding system, i think to level my tower now to max. And still had 25/30k food raids, after the update, as you can see.

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Raiding in the diamond tier produces excellent loot: unfarmable ascension items drop regularly, multiple times per week. If the devs have introduced this great benefit, and players have failed to recognise it, then I guess the devs’ next step is to change “the setup of the raiding system”, as you suggest.

And this is precisely what they’ve done.

No, it’s not. It is just a fact that others reported to get raided way more often:

He writes nothing about upgrades of his watchtower. And he also suddenly get raided way more often. There was just a change in the raiding system, believe me :wink:

Hmm. You seem resigned to the fact that trophies could never be a measure of skill/progress. I am not.

I would prefer they eliminate trophies rather than have them be part of a system where gaming the number of trophies is the goal of the activity.

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As long as Cups are the determining factor for matchmaking in raids, there will be a reason to drop cups for some portion of the player base. Would you agree to that much?

If the matchmaking function is the same as the rating scale they will never accomplish a true reflection of skill level. However in PvP matchmaking should be a reflection of skill so it’s just the logical approach. I don’t believe that team power should be the matchmaking method… But no matter the changes they make to the raid system, it will only progress to a point where the top 100 get 75% more opportunities than the rest of us to advance and further the gap.

Why bother? That’s the whole question, for people still months away from even attempting to fight in diamond tier… What’s the point in even trying? And if there is none for us now, when will we ever get that reason? There used to be a way for us… But now we can’t even get the food needed to work on the few heroes we need to be in that league.

Give me, those like me, and those newer than me a meaning to Cups now… Because it’s only losing value to us.

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What I will agree to is that it sucks that the change leads to a reduction in a key asset being available.

I do not agree that there would be a need to cup drop because of cups role in raid matchmaking. At my local tennis club, we have a tennis ladder. The hope is that people will play other people of a similar ability. The hope is to enjoy the game, win or lose. In addition to the fun of the individual matches, it’s also fun to gauge a player’s overall progress as they move up the ladder. It would be absurdly bad sportsmanship to intentionally lose matches in order to consistently face opponents you could beat.

The issue comes when the rewards for beating opponents become more important than the joy of the competition or of gauging your overall ability, progress and success. These rewards incentivize participation, but also incentivize behaviors that maximize the rewards. When the rewards are too high (as in this case) the entire intent of the system is subverted.

SG screwed this up initially and it has been broken for the whole game to date. They are trying to address it. They may or may not have gotten it right this time.

I think the problem is that most players are used to the idea that ‘cups dont matter’ and so see raiding just as an asset grab. The problem with this is that there are a number of ways the game would be better if cups DID matter. Alliance strength would make sense, for instance. And most importantly, if cups did matter, cups would become a much better reflection of actual ability and so the raid matchmaking would actually work.

All this said, I agree and sympathize (and share in the pain) that the immediate affect is simply less hams. This feeling sucks. I think SG could have tried a smaller nerf at low levels and a modest buff at high levels to even this out. Perhaps they will make adjustments.

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So here is what I like and don’t like about this change.
Bad:
The limits are too harsh at least where I am in Gold. My team power is ~2750 and once I got over 1500 trophies 9 out of 10 opponents were 3000+. At 1600 a reroll and averaging 8k -10k food for reward, I would be losing ham if I didn’t drop cups. With the old system I could re-roll 10 times and find an opponent under 3k and often make back the ham and then some.
Edit: Oh and I can’t use it as a good source of iron like I used to. Now it just gives a little bit per win.
Good:
I lose a lot less over night, Leveling up the Watchtower to max makes more sense.

I was reflecting on this before even reading your post… and I was struggling to figure out why ELO works so well in some games but so poorly here.

Most people, maybe even all, are motivated by a fun challenging competition. Raids should represent that.

So why the disconnect? Why are rewards needed to motivate players to engage in winning strategies, and to drive their trophy count?

The answer, I think, is a combination of an uneven playing surface and non-dynamic gameplay.

  1. We are simulating a pvp Experience. It isn’t actually pvp. The AI does not do anything surprising. In fact, early on we know exactly what the AI will do in a given situation. Their targeting seems to be dictated by random chance, im not sure if that’s true or not. But either way, you know exactly what’s coming.
  2. Outcomes are a result of matchup, luck, and THEN skill. In that order.
  3. You’re fielding the same team, match in, match out, against very similarly playing defenses (at least at my level hah!). It quickly becomes repetitive and honestly, almost boring.

So why do we keep doing it? Well, we enjoy the process. The growth of our kingdom and our heroes. We want our team to be better so we can support our alliance and help take down bigger titans and win AWs.

If this game were JUST raiding, it would fizzle out and die in no time. SG deserves mad props for marrying a lot of good ideas here.

But to think that raids are completing for the same reasons that people engage in tennis - or even Chess! - is silly. It quickly stops becoming about winning a challenge… (at least, imho).

So, the developers can STILL foster a dynamic, challenging, competitive environment.

If they think that this change does that, then fantastic. I don’t think it does or will, but they aren’t paying me for my opinion so… ya know :wink: I’m sure that won’t go anywhere.

But the players should be upset about this change because it does little to further what we all want: a competitive system where achieving higher rank is rewarded.

And they should be upset because it was not communicated clearly, or at all.

And they should be upset because there hasn’t been any feedback despite near constant complaint about it since issued.

There are probably other reasons hah.

Let me end with: I do think it is an improvement over having done nothing. I also think that’s a stupidly low bar to set. And that SG can do better.

Edit: I’m not one to complain without bringing a solution! So I think that fixing tier rewards MEANINGFULLY and obviously is step one.

But a really strong step 2 might be to hide the ascension and levels of defenders in raids.

Add some random qualities to defenses that are a little more unpredictable - you don’t see them when searching for a raid. (Examples: every turn 20% chance that one random hero gains 50% mana. Or the first hero to die revives with 25% health… random stuff. The determining factors for what random events could be at the alliance level, totally random, seasonal, determined by the defense, or really anything under the sun.)

To offset this, the attacking player should have some Raid specific battle items that help to mitigate the luck that prevails in a match3 environment.

And lastly… it may be prudent to hide the level of ascension of defending heroes and their overall power. This would really change the way people approach rerolls of course. And I think simultaneously, looking at changing the raid chest to include ‘raids attempted’ OR “matches made” might make sense. Right now kills are all that really matter. So in a bad matchup you get nothing for trying. If every match you made worked you closer to opening a chest, or every raid attempted, then players might not feel ‘afraid’ of wasting a flag on a stronger opponent.

Aaaand finally: at the end of the day, players need to be rewarded for taking on a challenge in a raid. And more than “need to be rewarded” they need to FEEL rewarded.

One suggestion is that at the end of the week player should get a chest or reward based upon their average trophy score for the week. I think that’s a great idea.

There are actually a ton of great ways to address this. What SG chose isn’t on my list :stuck_out_tongue:

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While I didn’t agree with all of it, your last post included some smart and insightful thoughts. I would point out what they are except I must now go and throw up.

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Yes it seems like they want players to not get as much resources especially iron idk about everyone else but my food is always maxed probly because to level up everything except for iron mills and tower it takes iron raids were the best source of iron available and now they’ve killed it why?!? I won’t be spending anymore money on this game in its current form they just ruined a 3rd of the game lol

Amen the revs need to roll this crap back or face losing a lot of money paying players raids are no longer fun without the loot incentive. And getting 5 stars is no easy task to be “the best” I drew 100 times and couldn’t even get the hero of the month jerks

What you’re describing makes sense if the aim of is game was to be an e-sport. However of all the video games I have played, this is the furthest from that. Besides, it’s a match 3 puzzle game… It’s not even about how smart you are in how you play because rng even affects what you have to play with. It’s not like chess or other board games where climbing a ladder has an end result - and never will be.

The only way to correctly rate players against each other on a skill level would be to introduce a new type of event - one where the board drops the exact same pattern for everyone depending on the level you have reached, and make it a time event which counts how few moves you can get.

Even tennis starts on an even field, players tire out at different paces or are better at anticipating vectors better than each other but those are measures of skill. Getting rewarded with trophies for making better use of your luck simply doesn’t compare. If you’re interested in a video game with a true ranking system and a sense of accomplishment… Raids in E&P is about the furthest you could get from that imo.

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@Raidnow

I agree with you on this. Getting 5* heroes and ascension items is ridiculously difficult.

I don’t agree with you on this. In order for raiders, including myself (raiding was my main source of iron and food), to be constantly gaining resources from raids, other players were getting frustrated and possibly/probably leaving the game!

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Maybe not exactly the furthest you could get but there are definitely many other means of measuring such skills :slight_smile: LOL

I know I won’t be spending anything else here to draw 10 times in a row and 9 3*’s and a 4 I already had lol thanks but no thanks so I was gonna try to max out keep to 20 but you need iron and lots of it and they now just took that away I mean ok thanks do they think people will pay to fill their resources lol keep dreaming devs keep dreaming

This game sucks now with the new raid system. I used to be able to get extra loot with it but now needing items to ascend characters not being strong enough to win items from events that are going on (ie top 100 for any ascension items) what can I do except for the titan hit. Lol you are destroying what made it fun developers I hope you change tactic. Or lose a lot of players and potential revenue your choice.

You created an aptly-named username just to tell us how much you dislike these new raids?

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